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	<title>Comments on: Paving the Road to Hell</title>
	<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/</link>
	<description>se wo were fi na wosan kofa a yenki</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ju</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-22738</link>
		<dc:creator>ju</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Sep 2006 17:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-22738</guid>
		<description>I believe the Malthusian approach is not the only one to this issue, and his idea of 'positive' checks may indeed be the 'lesser evil', but that doesn't make it right or good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the Malthusian approach is not the only one to this issue, and his idea of &#8216;positive&#8217; checks may indeed be the &#8216;lesser evil&#8217;, but that doesn&#8217;t make it right or good.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-829</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-829</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.tnr.com/etc.mhtml?pid=2730" rel="nofollow"&gt;The New Republic has a really great piece on the Darfur genocide&lt;/a&gt;.  &lt;a href="http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/43556" rel="nofollow"&gt;Via&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href="http://metafilter.com" rel="nofollow"&gt;MetaFilter&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.tnr.com/etc.mhtml?pid=2730" rel="nofollow">The New Republic has a really great piece on the Darfur genocide</a>.  <a href="http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/43556" rel="nofollow">Via</a> <a href="http://metafilter.com" rel="nofollow">MetaFilter</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-509</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:19:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-509</guid>
		<description>On compassion in the natural world, you caught me on some important caveats.  What was it Daniel Quinn said about Mother Culture singing in your ear?  You're never entirely rid of her damned influence, are you?  What I meant is that nature doesn't show any interest in justice, only in what works.  In every way we could imagine, the Neanderthals "deserved" to live more than we did, but that's not what happened.  Did &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; those people killed in the tsunami "deserve" to die?  Looking for nature to back you up on questions of right and wrong isn't likely to go very far.  For a Just G-d, he left precious little evidence of ethical conduct in his Creation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On compassion in the natural world, you caught me on some important caveats.  What was it Daniel Quinn said about Mother Culture singing in your ear?  You&#8217;re never entirely rid of her damned influence, are you?  What I meant is that nature doesn&#8217;t show any interest in justice, only in what works.  In every way we could imagine, the Neanderthals &#8220;deserved&#8221; to live more than we did, but that&#8217;s not what happened.  Did <em>all</em> those people killed in the tsunami &#8220;deserve&#8221; to die?  Looking for nature to back you up on questions of right and wrong isn&#8217;t likely to go very far.  For a Just G-d, he left precious little evidence of ethical conduct in his Creation.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Thomas</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-494</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Apr 2005 03:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-494</guid>
		<description>Jason:

Great analysis, but I have two problems.  

First:

"Pity and compassion...are alien to the natural world."

My assumption is that you didn't actually intend to say this, so I'm not going to bother going over the problems with this statement in detail.  Simply, it 1) ignores the fact that humans are part of the natural world, 2) ignores the fact that humans are not the only species capable of feeling pity or compassion, and 3) even if we take it to mean, "the gods/forces of natural/natural laws that run the universe are not capable of feeling pity or compassion," rather than talking about the emotional capacity of biological life-forms, it's still not a verifiable (or, in my opinion, likely-to-be-accurate) statement.

Second:

(This point is related to the comment you posted, Jason, which I appreciated).

My understanding of Darfur is limited.  But from what I've gathered, the conflict is between nomadic  pastoral (pastoralism not in my view being an exceptional lifestyle, nor dependant upon symbiosis with an agricultural community, see the Chuk'chi, but that's a different argument) tribes against an Islamic state.  

I agree, of course, that the enlightened First World should not pull an intervention.  I agree with essentially every statement you made.  But I would add this: IF there has to be a genocide there (and there probably does); and IF I'm even vaguely correct about the battle lines; THEN I would personally much prefer that the brunt of the genocide-burden fell on the Muslim statists.  Again, if I'm correct, then part of the reason for the population problem is the existance of the state infrastructure.  No "nomadic tribes and barbarians" (I THINK I remember that as the exact phrase used by the central government to describe the threatened population) could cause a population crisis of this nature.  If the government wins, then as in Rwanda the stage will already be set for another "Malthusian hell."

Of course, if the US did intervene and topple the Islamic government, it would be under the guise of the "War on Terror," and it would certainly not lead to any resolution of the ecological problem--in fact it would probably exacerbate it.  I do not want any of these things to happen--but the fact remains that one side of this conflict is morally superior to the other, and I wish them victory.

It's also worth remembering that in Rwanda and currently in the Congo the remaining hunter-gatherer bands were and are the most vulnerable of all the ethnic groups involved.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason:</p>
<p>Great analysis, but I have two problems.  </p>
<p>First:</p>
<p>&#8220;Pity and compassion&#8230;are alien to the natural world.&#8221;</p>
<p>My assumption is that you didn&#8217;t actually intend to say this, so I&#8217;m not going to bother going over the problems with this statement in detail.  Simply, it 1) ignores the fact that humans are part of the natural world, 2) ignores the fact that humans are not the only species capable of feeling pity or compassion, and 3) even if we take it to mean, &#8220;the gods/forces of natural/natural laws that run the universe are not capable of feeling pity or compassion,&#8221; rather than talking about the emotional capacity of biological life-forms, it&#8217;s still not a verifiable (or, in my opinion, likely-to-be-accurate) statement.</p>
<p>Second:</p>
<p>(This point is related to the comment you posted, Jason, which I appreciated).</p>
<p>My understanding of Darfur is limited.  But from what I&#8217;ve gathered, the conflict is between nomadic  pastoral (pastoralism not in my view being an exceptional lifestyle, nor dependant upon symbiosis with an agricultural community, see the Chuk&#8217;chi, but that&#8217;s a different argument) tribes against an Islamic state.  </p>
<p>I agree, of course, that the enlightened First World should not pull an intervention.  I agree with essentially every statement you made.  But I would add this: IF there has to be a genocide there (and there probably does); and IF I&#8217;m even vaguely correct about the battle lines; THEN I would personally much prefer that the brunt of the genocide-burden fell on the Muslim statists.  Again, if I&#8217;m correct, then part of the reason for the population problem is the existance of the state infrastructure.  No &#8220;nomadic tribes and barbarians&#8221; (I THINK I remember that as the exact phrase used by the central government to describe the threatened population) could cause a population crisis of this nature.  If the government wins, then as in Rwanda the stage will already be set for another &#8220;Malthusian hell.&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course, if the US did intervene and topple the Islamic government, it would be under the guise of the &#8220;War on Terror,&#8221; and it would certainly not lead to any resolution of the ecological problem&#8211;in fact it would probably exacerbate it.  I do not want any of these things to happen&#8211;but the fact remains that one side of this conflict is morally superior to the other, and I wish them victory.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth remembering that in Rwanda and currently in the Congo the remaining hunter-gatherer bands were and are the most vulnerable of all the ethnic groups involved.</p>
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		<title>By: Gus</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-492</link>
		<dc:creator>Gus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-492</guid>
		<description>Even with the publicity of Rwanda &#38; Darfur brutality, many people ignore that there's even worse murdering going on next door in the &lt;a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4424909.stm" rel="nofollow"&gt;DR Congo&lt;/a&gt;-- over 4 million killed in what might be best described as an orgy of anarchy caused by exactly the same overpopulation. Most of the press coverage describes it as a civil war, but it's not -- it's small quasi-tribes (with little or no sense of tribal cultural history) butchering each other and anyone who gets in the way. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even with the publicity of Rwanda &amp; Darfur brutality, many people ignore that there&#8217;s even worse murdering going on next door in the <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4424909.stm" rel="nofollow">DR Congo</a>&#8211; over 4 million killed in what might be best described as an orgy of anarchy caused by exactly the same overpopulation. Most of the press coverage describes it as a civil war, but it&#8217;s not &#8212; it&#8217;s small quasi-tribes (with little or no sense of tribal cultural history) butchering each other and anyone who gets in the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-488</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/04/the-rwandan-microcosm/#comment-488</guid>
		<description>So where does personal responsibility fit into this?  Am I excusing the murderous Hutu regime that slaughtered nearly a million innocent people?  Hardly.  Personal responsibility fits into determing who will play the parts.  The script may be written by the cruelty of fate, but we each volunteer for our parts.  Each of those criminals currently being tried took on their role in the genocide willingly.  It may have had to happen, but it didn't have to be &lt;em&gt;them&lt;/em&gt;, and for that, &lt;em&gt;they&lt;/em&gt; are utterly responsible and deserving of every last bit of scorn and contempt heaped upon them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So where does personal responsibility fit into this?  Am I excusing the murderous Hutu regime that slaughtered nearly a million innocent people?  Hardly.  Personal responsibility fits into determing who will play the parts.  The script may be written by the cruelty of fate, but we each volunteer for our parts.  Each of those criminals currently being tried took on their role in the genocide willingly.  It may have had to happen, but it didn&#8217;t have to be <em>them</em>, and for that, <em>they</em> are utterly responsible and deserving of every last bit of scorn and contempt heaped upon them.</p>
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