Comments on: The Tragedy of the Holy Two-Spirited Fag http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/ se wo were fi na wosan kofa a yenki Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:49:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Perceptual Cross-Dressing From the Rabbit Hole « Waking the Midnight Sun http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-177405 Perceptual Cross-Dressing From the Rabbit Hole « Waking the Midnight Sun Mon, 14 Jan 2008 05:39:25 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-177405 [...] And from Anthropik piece itself,  Jason Godesky’s “The Trickster, The Devil, And An Ambiguous World” (a piece I love simply because it posits a trickster origin to the devil figure that I came to suspect myself a few years back), here’s more on the spiritual cross-dresser: Gay and lesbian citizens of the Navajo Nation almost faced a serious setback last month when the tribal council unanimously voted to outlaw same-sex marriage. To anyone who’s familiar with traditional Navajo culture, the very idea seems absurd. These are the people who honored the nadleeh—the man with two spirits, one masculine, one feminine. Whenever such a man was born in a Navajo community, he would be permitted to dress like, act like, and perform the duties of a woman. He could even marry another man, and the community considered that to be equivalent to any heterosexual marriage. However, in recent years, the traditional Navajo point of view on homosexuality has been so devastated by western influence that… well, that we now have Navajos trying to ban same-sex marriage.3 [...] […] And from Anthropik piece itself,  Jason Godesky’s “The Trickster, The Devil, And An Ambiguous World” (a piece I love simply because it posits a trickster origin to the devil figure that I came to suspect myself a few years back), here’s more on the spiritual cross-dresser: Gay and lesbian citizens of the Navajo Nation almost faced a serious setback last month when the tribal council unanimously voted to outlaw same-sex marriage. To anyone who’s familiar with traditional Navajo culture, the very idea seems absurd. These are the people who honored the nadleeh—the man with two spirits, one masculine, one feminine. Whenever such a man was born in a Navajo community, he would be permitted to dress like, act like, and perform the duties of a woman. He could even marry another man, and the community considered that to be equivalent to any heterosexual marriage. However, in recent years, the traditional Navajo point of view on homosexuality has been so devastated by western influence that… well, that we now have Navajos trying to ban same-sex marriage.3 […]

]]> By: The Anthropik Network » The Trickster, the Devil, and an Ambiguous World http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-12337 The Anthropik Network » The Trickster, the Devil, and an Ambiguous World Tue, 06 Jun 2006 19:08:42 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-12337 [...] The ambiguous gender of Tricksters is also worthy of note here. In the story related above, Loki changes gender to seduce the mare, and gives birth to a calf. Nadleeh, the Navajo version of the two-spirited berdache, was an important figure in the creation story like First Man, First Woman and Coyote. Such people were believed to have two spirits, a fact that made them powerful shamans. Almost exactly a year ago: Gay and lesbian citizens of the Navajo Nation almost faced a serious setback last month when the tribal council unanimously voted to outlaw same-sex marriage. To anyone who's familiar with traditional Navajo culture, the very idea seems absurd. These are the people who honored the nadleeh—the man with two spirits, one masculine, one feminine. Whenever such a man was born in a Navajo community, he would be permitted to dress like, act like, and perform the duties of a woman. He could even marry another man, and the community considered that to be equivalent to any heterosexual marriage. However, in recent years, the traditional Navajo point of view on homosexuality has been so devastated by western influence that... well, that we now have Navajos trying to ban same-sex marriage.3 [...] […] The ambiguous gender of Tricksters is also worthy of note here. In the story related above, Loki changes gender to seduce the mare, and gives birth to a calf. Nadleeh, the Navajo version of the two-spirited berdache, was an important figure in the creation story like First Man, First Woman and Coyote. Such people were believed to have two spirits, a fact that made them powerful shamans. Almost exactly a year ago: Gay and lesbian citizens of the Navajo Nation almost faced a serious setback last month when the tribal council unanimously voted to outlaw same-sex marriage. To anyone who’s familiar with traditional Navajo culture, the very idea seems absurd. These are the people who honored the nadleeh—the man with two spirits, one masculine, one feminine. Whenever such a man was born in a Navajo community, he would be permitted to dress like, act like, and perform the duties of a woman. He could even marry another man, and the community considered that to be equivalent to any heterosexual marriage. However, in recent years, the traditional Navajo point of view on homosexuality has been so devastated by western influence that… well, that we now have Navajos trying to ban same-sex marriage.3 […]

]]> By: Rebecca http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-3874 Rebecca Thu, 22 Dec 2005 02:34:01 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-3874 Hey ya all; As a proud dyke myself, I just wanted to add in that although it's very uncool to slag us most of the time, we are really only talking the western hemisphere, with some exceptions like Calgary Ab Canada, (were I'm sitting now) and the occasional amazing asian country (can't think of it right now - really hude tranny pop?) So really, the fight is still on until WE ARE ALL FREE -- am I right or am I right? Just walk into any school and you can hear Fag spoken more freely than any "swear" in Canada, cause as yet, few teachers have the balls to make such a stand:( Hey ya all;

As a proud dyke myself, I just wanted to add in that although it’s very uncool to slag us most of the time, we are really only talking the western hemisphere, with some exceptions like Calgary Ab Canada, (were I’m sitting now) and the occasional amazing asian country (can’t think of it right now - really hude tranny pop?) So really, the fight is still on until WE ARE ALL FREE — am I right or am I right? Just walk into any school and you can hear Fag spoken more freely than any “swear” in Canada, cause as yet, few teachers have the balls to make such a stand:(

]]> By: Finally, Some Good News » The Anthropik Network http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-1874 Finally, Some Good News » The Anthropik Network Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:00:00 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-1874 [...] The reality of the situation is drastically different from what the average American has been led to believe. Missionaries are in fact the first wave of genocide. They come, they fill the natives with a sense of guilt about their traditional beliefs, they give everyone the impression that white people want to help them solve the problems they (foolishly) never knew they had. Sometimes missionaries come peacefully, allowing the natives to lower their guard just in time for the murderers and slave owners to come in. More often, it's the missionaries themselves who murder and enslave. [...] […] The reality of the situation is drastically different from what the average American has been led to believe. Missionaries are in fact the first wave of genocide. They come, they fill the natives with a sense of guilt about their traditional beliefs, they give everyone the impression that white people want to help them solve the problems they (foolishly) never knew they had. Sometimes missionaries come peacefully, allowing the natives to lower their guard just in time for the murderers and slave owners to come in. More often, it’s the missionaries themselves who murder and enslave. […]

]]> By: The Savage Mirror » The Anthropik Network http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-710 The Savage Mirror » The Anthropik Network Wed, 25 May 2005 02:29:17 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-710 [...] zation, many of them fiercely fought their grand destiny - which was, of course, to become just lik [...] […] zation, many of them fiercely fought their grand destiny - which was, of course, to become just lik […]

]]> By: Jason Godesky http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-694 Jason Godesky Tue, 17 May 2005 15:54:46 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-694 I'm very <em>laissez-faire</em> about comments, and I'm happy anytime an article sparks <em>any</em> discussion. But I'd sayy starting so many people talking face-to-face counts a <em>lot</em> more than some comments left on the page itself. I’m very laissez-faire about comments, and I’m happy anytime an article sparks any discussion. But I’d sayy starting so many people talking face-to-face counts a lot more than some comments left on the page itself.

]]> By: Devin http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-693 Devin Tue, 17 May 2005 15:42:22 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-693 I'm always pretty relaxed, but I was just concerned. Anyway, I'm "Chilled"... but if you're going to talk about the usage of the word in general, don't quote me. :p <em>"Sir, the thread has become too serious! Our irony is unable to penetrate it! We have to retreat!" "Get us out of here, helm. Maximum warp!"</em> ...Bastard. :) Just to let you know, Giuli, I enjoyed the article. I'm surprised I didn't mention it before. It inspired a conversation with a couple of my friends about (what would you call it? it's a bit stronger than "influence") western society's approach to other cultures. Seek and destroy. Then, perhaps years later, apologize to those still around, blame them for their problems, and westernize them. Their problems come from not being like us, right? sigh. I'm thinking the Navajo were finished when they first made contact with the white settlers. Peace, Devin I’m always pretty relaxed, but I was just concerned. Anyway, I’m “Chilled”… but if you’re going to talk about the usage of the word in general, don’t quote me. :p

“Sir, the thread has become too serious! Our irony is unable to penetrate it! We have to retreat!”

“Get us out of here, helm. Maximum warp!”
…Bastard. :)

Just to let you know, Giuli, I enjoyed the article. I’m surprised I didn’t mention it before. It inspired a conversation with a couple of my friends about (what would you call it? it’s a bit stronger than “influence”) western society’s approach to other cultures. Seek and destroy. Then, perhaps years later, apologize to those still around, blame them for their problems, and westernize them. Their problems come from not being like us, right? sigh.

I’m thinking the Navajo were finished when they first made contact with the white settlers.

Peace,
Devin

]]> By: Mike Godesky http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-692 Mike Godesky Tue, 17 May 2005 13:33:16 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-692 Devin, chill. I wasn't attacking <em>you</em> personally. I was just talking about the usage of the word "fag" in general. Giuli, welcome to the blogosphere. You can't make people comment exactly the way you envisioned them doing. It's much more organic. People will discuss the points in the article that <em>they</em> want to talk about. You should just be glad when something you write can spark conversation at all. Okay, so maybe the discussion hasn't been about the main point of the article. But it is a pretty interesting look at the proper use of the word "fag." And that's kind of cool. Devin, chill. I wasn’t attacking you personally. I was just talking about the usage of the word “fag” in general.

Giuli, welcome to the blogosphere. You can’t make people comment exactly the way you envisioned them doing. It’s much more organic. People will discuss the points in the article that they want to talk about. You should just be glad when something you write can spark conversation at all. Okay, so maybe the discussion hasn’t been about the main point of the article. But it is a pretty interesting look at the proper use of the word “fag.” And that’s kind of cool.

]]> By: Janene http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-691 Janene Tue, 17 May 2005 12:31:10 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-691 Hey -- If it helps.... the article inspired a long discussion between me and Jim and his buddy last weekend :-) (and yes, I did think it was a great article -- that's why I had nothing to pick on!) Janene Hey –

If it helps…. the article inspired a long discussion between me and Jim and his buddy last weekend :-) (and yes, I did think it was a great article — that’s why I had nothing to pick on!)

Janene

]]> By: Jason Godesky http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-690 Jason Godesky Tue, 17 May 2005 12:25:46 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2005/05/the-tragedy-of-the-holy-two-spirited-fag/#comment-690 Maybe you haven't noticed, Devin, but Mike is our Trickster-in-Residence--he has a bit of fun when he sees people acting a bit too serious. Apparently, he's tagged you as such. Maybe you aren't; maybe you are. I tend to think the latter, but maybe it's something to consider. Giuli asked me to respond and explain her point-of-view, and I asked to what purpose? What can be said? You have a point; I don't think it's a terribly good one, but it's all about feelings and such. I can never prove you wrong, and it's unlikely I'll ever say anything that can dissuade you. I've certainly not heard anything that would make <em>me</em> consider changing the title. Giuli bemoaned that everyone was discussing the <em>title</em> and seemingly ignored the article--something quite fascinating, actually. For that, she did consider changing the title. I dissuaded her; I think the title is perfect. And ending a petty discussion on the title won't automatically replace it with a deep and interesting discussion of the article. Maybe you haven’t noticed, Devin, but Mike is our Trickster-in-Residence–he has a bit of fun when he sees people acting a bit too serious. Apparently, he’s tagged you as such. Maybe you aren’t; maybe you are. I tend to think the latter, but maybe it’s something to consider.

Giuli asked me to respond and explain her point-of-view, and I asked to what purpose? What can be said? You have a point; I don’t think it’s a terribly good one, but it’s all about feelings and such. I can never prove you wrong, and it’s unlikely I’ll ever say anything that can dissuade you. I’ve certainly not heard anything that would make me consider changing the title. Giuli bemoaned that everyone was discussing the title and seemingly ignored the article–something quite fascinating, actually. For that, she did consider changing the title. I dissuaded her; I think the title is perfect. And ending a petty discussion on the title won’t automatically replace it with a deep and interesting discussion of the article.

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