Maintaining And Creating Egalitarian Social, Economic and Political Structures After the Collapse

by Steve Thomas

Introduction

That we are approaching the collapse is largely beyond debate. It is unnecessary to give a detailed examination here of the factors by which the collapse may come about. My purpose, instead, is twofold:

1. To explore the form the collapse may take; that is, to speculate on what we will actually experience as global industrial civilization crumbles, and more importantly

2. To explore how we may hope to create and perpetuate egalitarianism in a state of civilizational collapse.

What to Expect

How will we know the collapse is upon us? The warning signs may be here already. We have already written of hurricanes Katrina and Rita as possibly the “opening shots� in the collapse of the oil infrastructure. We will probably learn this winter whether we are correct.

However, it is very unlikely that there is going to be a point at which we can say “Yes, civilization is collapsing.� That is, it is very unlikely that there will be a sudden, thief-in-the-night disintegration of all of this society’s political and economic infrastructure. What we are likely to see, in the near term, is escalation of the current spate of war and oppression, until the point at which they become untenable.

That is: we will continue to fight everywhere in the globe for oil, until we have less oil to fuel our armies than we are bringing in from the Middle East, the Caspian, South America, etc. We will continue to undergo increased political repression in the form of surveillance, law enforcement, and curtailing of dissent, until there is no more oil left to power the police cars, the check points, the GPS systems, the computers, etc. And the American economy will continue to crumble, forcing more and more people into poverty, debt, and unemployment. It will look like a recession, then like a depression, before it looks like collapse.

The pace of the collapse will probably be gradual overall, with a few puntucating events. We have already seen one such punctuation (Hurricane Katrina). However quickly or slowly events progress, there will come a point at which the knowledge that the current system for the provision of basic resources—food, water, shelter, heat—is defunct. There will be a point at which most grocery stores are empty. At which most of the lights and heaters do not turn on and most of the water faucets stop running. At this point the collapse will begin in earnest, as the majority of America’s 300 million people realize that they are going to have to find a different way to live.

There may be a sudden event which triggers this–an event after which the whole of the United States finds itself in the position of New Orleans. But even with a sudden event, things may linger for quite a while, a decade or more.

The Land Grab

What we may see is a massive Land Grab, as millions of urbanites, suburbanites and townsmen struggle for every remaining bit of land they can force a crop out of. In fact, such an event is almost guaranteed to occur. It is very unlikely that this event will be nonviolent. The vast majority of the rural land in America is owned either by the state or by corporations—that is, by the powerful—who are unlikely to give it up, and will probably fight tooth and nail for the last of what they see is “theirs.�

We may see an incipient feudalism appearing as police, soldiers, and vast numbers of the newly impoverished find themselves willing to fight for some wealthy landholder for the right to a meager plot of land.

Even if/where such a feudalism does not emerge, violence is likely. The North American landmass (north of the Rio Grande) is home to some 320 million people at present. It cannot support that population without modern petroleum-based agriculture. Rwanda—a genocide driven by overpopulation, as Jared Diamond convincingly demonstrated in Collapse—may provide a terrifying example of what America will look like as petroleum agriculture collapses.

Eventually the Land Grab will end, and the North America will settle into a sustainable equilibrium. The question before us is whether that equilibrium will consist of Option A: a reasonably high population of interlinked, egalitarian societies of diverse configurations (as was the case on the continent before the arrival of Europeans); or Option B: perpetual famine, endemic warfare and warlordism (as is the case in other modern examples of state collapse).

Achieving Option A

It is extremely likely—as has been written elsewhere—that we have already entered the beginning of the collapse. It may be a good idea to prolong the period of collapse as long as possible. The slower things unfold, the more time we have to educate people and “change minds.” That is, the more we can see to it that as many people as possible are to building a better society, rather than fighting over the scraps of the old. Moreover, the more slowly things unfold, the more time we have to actually create sustainable infrastructure that can support human life and survive the collapse.

On the other hand, the more slowly things unfold, the more time the hierarchy has to devastate the natural infrastructure such as it exists. If the collapse hits suddenly twenty years from now, a further (great percentage) of US topsoil will be depleted and a corresponding amount of forest will be destroyed. Thus, the more carrying capacity for non-industrial humans in the US will be deteriorated.

We are on the edge of a knife. If collapse occurs too suddenly, we will not be ready, and we will find ourselves overwhelmed and destroyed with the rest of the desperate refugees. If it occurs too gradually, even if we have built our own sustainable habitats, the rest of the continent will be so depleted that the hundreds of millions of new refugees will have no way to make their living. There will be very, very little viable land left—and we will be sitting upon most of it. In such a scenario we will be subjected to constant attack; we will be overwhelmed and destroyed.

It is worth noting that we probably will not have any say in this. The best strategy we can pursue is to 1. continue to create our tribes, communes, church groups, ecovillages, and community organizations and continue to link these disparate groups together, and at the same time continue to create the ecological infrastructure/habitat to support them; 2. to continue to recruit as many people as will possibly want to join us; 3. to continue to struggle against the destruction of extant ecological infrastructure with all of our resources.

Maintaining and Perpetuating Egalitarianism

Food is the foundation of culture. All upper-level cultural organization—social organization, politics, religion, law, war, art, everything—follows from the basic infrastructure of how a society provisions its members. This fact is critical if we are to maintain and create egalitarianism once the industrial infrastructure has disappeared.

Before going on I suppose I should define what I mean by egalitarianism. First, I take it to be the goal of most of us in the broad, linked movement that encompasses anarchists, tribalists, permaculture, ecovillages, culture change theorists, etc. I define “egalitarianism� as a condition, pervading every aspect of cultural life—economic, familial, social, political, religious—in which no individual has the power to command any other; in which the needs (biological and psychological) of every individual are met, or at least are met to the exact same extent to which the needs of every other individual are met; and in which hierarchies that do arise are temporary, based on necessity, and based on individual merit and in no way on ascribed status of any sort.

Now, egalitarianism must (in my view) be coupled with autonomy. If a neighboring Christian group wishes to survive the oil crash, but also wishes to maintain their church-mandated hierarchies, we should not seek to oppose them in this (although given the proselytizing nature of Christianity, it’s probably smart to steer clear of church groups).

So, how can we create and maintain this condition when society is collapsing around us, and when we are likely to be in a state of at least sporadic warfare with people who are very much interested in maintaining and perpetuating the hierarchy?

Let’s return to food. How we get our food will form the basis for how we create the rest of our society. In the following section I will explore the nature of various subsistence strategies; how they will permit practitioners to deal with the chaotic conditions of the Land Grab; and how they relate to issues of egalitarianism.

Hunting and Gathering

Historically, hunter-gatherers have been the best example of human egalitarianism. This makes sense, since until recently they were the only examples of humanity, and humans are naturally egalitarian. The hunter-gatherer band follows the rhizome pattern described by Jeff Vail.

Characteristics of the band include:

1. Small size. The whole of a group which can be considered part of the same band is never more than a few hundred.

2. Fluid composition and mobility. The band consists of subgroups and sub-subgroups linked in a weak network. Membership in smaller groups is always subject to change. This is one of the factors leading to the band’s egalitarianism. If Group A becomes dominated by a murderous despot, Group A’s members can simply leave and join Group B, C, or D. This is different from an agricultural society, in which Group A is fixed upon Farm A, and cannot leave.

3. A fission-fusion pattern of residency whereby small groups (5-15) seasonally combine to form larger (30-70) groups and then disperse again, often with composition rearranged.

4. Reciprocity. The great advantage of the band is that it simply cannot afford hierarchy. With its small numbers, fluctuating food supply, and at least partial dependency upon game animals (the hunting of which is never successful every time), the band must make sure it provides for every one of its individual members, because it is dependant upon all of them.

During the Land Grab:

Band societies will have advantages and disadvantages in the post-Peak world. If I am correct in that there will be fighting (possibly very heavy fighting, genocidal fighting) over the remaining land, hunter-gatherers will in some respects be in a very good position. Unlike the gardener or farmer or permaculturist, tied to a given piece of land, the hunter-gatherer can simply go somewhere else when things get bad. The hunter-gatherer band also has the following tremendous advantage: its structure is exactly the same as the ideal structure for guerilla warfare. As John Robb writes,

“This leads us to optimal group size, which according to Chris Allen’s online group analysis, can be seen at two levels: both small and medium sized. Small, viable (in that they can be effective at tasks) groups (or cells) are optimized at 7-8 members. A lower boundary can be seen at 5 (with groups less than 5 not having sufficient resources to be effective) and an upper boundary at 9. Medium sized groups are optimal at 45-50 members, with a lower limit of 25 and an upper limit of 80.â€?

Cells of 5-9 members, converging into larger groups of 25-80 members. Sound familiar?

The same factors which lead to the advantage of mobility, however, may lead to some great disadvantages. Given the devastated nature of most of this continent’s ecosystems, it is likely that hunter-gatherer groups will have to depend on a very large stretch of territory. Such a large territory can be very difficult to defend, especially if it is 1. circumscribed and 2. being encroached upon from multiple points. This disadvantage may be overcome through the use of permaculture or Fukuoka seedball techniques to create good foraging habitat—but this could in turn result in the same disadvantages which will accompany permaculture (see below).

It is worth noting that the hunter-gatherers of Rwanda faired worse than the Tutsis.

Egalitarianism:

Returning again to the question of egalitarianism, hunter-gatherers historically have the best track record, however even they sometimes fail the test, particularly when it comes to gender relations. We can look to the Mbuti, the Semai, and the !Kung of examples of hunter-gatherer societies in which relations between the sexes were equal or near equal. However contrasting this we find the Yahgan (who informed a missionary, shocked at their lack of hierarchy: “Oh we have hierarchy. All men are captains and all women sailors); some Eskimo groups (in which women were routinely raped as soon as they came of age); and the aborigines of Tasmania.

How can we ensure egalitarianism in hunter-gatherer societies? Well, their natural gravitation toward this mode is certainly helpful. If every individual is necessary (as they are in small societies), it should be the case that every individual will be treated as if they are necessary (and groups who fail to do so will likely fail to survive, as members necessary to the group’s survival die of deprivation or run off to join another group). An active, practiced ideology of egalitarianism should be put into place. Reciprocity, sharing, and nurturance should inform the way children are raised, and tendencies in children toward hierarchy and competition stifled. Even in bands, domination at the social level and alpha-maleism may persist. Alpha-type individuals should be actively suppressed. Practices such as nonviolent communication—which can be learned now—could persist and be very beneficial in post-crash hunter-gatherer societies.

It is worth noting that hunter-gatherers very, very often practice a division of labor by gender. This can lead to subjugation if women or men provide the vast majority of resources. (Women were the primary food providers among the misogynistic Tasmanians; men provided all the food among the misogynistic Eskimo). Hunting seems to naturally become a male-based activity, for reasons which are unclear. If a group is in an environment wherein hunting must provide the vast majority of food, steps should be made to make it collective (using nets, fire and the like).

All of these are concerns, but my own experience (admittedly limited) with neo-tribal foraging groups leads me to think that these societies will have little to worry about internally. It will be outsiders that will be their problem.

Horticulture and Permaculture

By horticulture I mean low-intensity farming, often involving intercropping and slash-and-burn techniques; lacking irrigation or other large-scale projects; often including the raising of domestic animals such as pigs, chickens, or sheep; and typically coupled with at least some hunting, fishing and wild-plant foraging. Permaculture is a modern concept, and refers to the application of ecological principles to agricultural design. The simplest way to describe permaculture is as a deliberately built natural ecosystem, in which every species is involved in producing human food. Since permaculture was initially put forward it has been discovered that many indigenous horticultural systems in fact anticipate it. The Kayapo and other Amazonian Indian tribes, for instance, used permacultural techniques to create vast, largely self-sustaining and sustainable forests of human food sources. (See Toby Hemenway’s article Beyond Wilderness for more on this topic).

Characteristics of horticultural societies have traditionally included:

1. Permanent or semi-permanent residency. Horticulturists usually live in permanent villages, though they may disperse for hunting during a particular season in appropriate environments.

2. Far more fixed modes of sociopolitical organization. Horticulturists tend to have fixed clans, lineages, tribes and moieties. Such elaborate and permanent organization is not absent in hunter-gatherer societies (as anyone who has ever tried to comprehend the kinship system of the Central Austrlaians knows), but in most cases it is much less fixed and rigid than in horticulture. Such rigidity may necessarily entail a loss of freedom (as group fluidity is diminished)

3. Collective ownership. In horticultural societies, villages, families or clans tend to own garden land collectively (as opposed to hunter-gatherer societies, in which ownership of any sort is minimal and usually limited to individual use-rights). Whether this ownership arrangement is egalitarian or not will depend upon whether village, family, or clan organization is in fact egalitarian.

4. Endemic warfare.

During the Land Grab:

Permaculture systems, including permaculture-based villages, are being set up across the world right now. Permaculture pracitioners will have the advantage of a reasonably abundant food supply in a small, fixed location. Entire regions may manage to switch to permaculture before the collapse is permanent–and these regions may expect their lives to continue relatively smoothly. This may become a disadvantage, however, as they arouse the jealousy of their neighbors and they are forced to defend their constricted plot of ground.

Traditional horticulture often involves grain, such as the corn-beans-squash triad planted across North America in the past. Practitioners of such systems should be advised of the detrimental effects such crops can have on group health, and of the tendency of cultivation of annuals to deplete soil and result in collapse. Numerous horticulture systems in the past have resulted in ecological damage, and this is a time when new land will be rather scarce. Permaculture, on the other hand, may prove extremely sustainable.

Egalitarianism:

Traditional horticultural societies varied widely. Most were status-egalitarian. Many had the institution of the Big Man; this is an individual who is permitted to amass a great deal of wealth and influence, but who lacks ascribed (fixed) status and the ability to command. If conditions are right this Big Man may quickly become a chief.

In horticultural societies again we find considerable variation of gender hierarchies. There are the islanders of Vanitinai, of whom the only gender-based complaints we can find are that women are much less likely to practice sorcery than men and far more likely to perform the onerous chore of shoveling pig shit; the Iroquois, who maintained a complicated system of gender checks-and-balances; and the Zuni, among whom only women could traditionally own property. On the other hand there are many Amazonian and New Guinean tribes among whom women were terrorized by men and lived in constant fear of violence and rape.

Being cultivators, practitioners of horticulture often have a need for more children. This can lead to a heavy body-burden on women. Continual pregnancy can also lead to women’s inability to participate in other aspects of tribal life, further reducing their status. Being cultivators they are also subject to high population densities, which can lead to endemic warfare, which nearly always results in male supremacy.

It remains to be seen whether permaculture practices will mitigate this. To the extent that permaculture systems do not require great energy inputs, they should not encourage overpopulation. However, to the extent that they are fixed in space, horticulture and permaculture structures will need to be defended more than the wide territories of hunter-gatherers. Hence even the most sustainable permaculture societies may descend into patriarchy due to the need for constant warfare.

If male dominance of warfare is unavoidable (and history shows us that it probably is), one solution tribal villages might undertake is to alleviate patriarchy is to—simply—get as much land as possible. This is because if a tribal confederation consists twenty neighboring permaculture/horticulture villages across several hundred square miles (not an easy thing to achieve right now…), then (male) warriors will have to travel much farther to fight. This requires the creation of a system in which control of property is in the hands of stay-at-home women. Matrilineality and matrilocality may result and substantially mitigate male supremacy.

Of course, the best solution for incipient perma/horticultural villages is to make sure all their neighbors can provide for themselves, too. In the days of the Land Grab they might want to deliberately evangelize; send missionaries to everyone within several days walking distance to teach them how to grow crops without oil. This will minimize the amount of fighting they have to do and possibly nip the problem in the bud. In fact, this is a pretty good idea for all of us.

Organic Agriculture

In some regions, intensive agriculture, of the sort practiced before the arrival of petrochemicals, may still be possible. This is not advisable. Intensive agriculture by its nature depletes soil; encourages hierarchy, expansion, and statism; and always results in collapse. However, some current agricultural communes, homesteads ecovillages may persist for quit some time, especially if they take the time now to implement such techniques as biodiesel and solar energy.

Characteristics of agricultural societies have traditionally included:

1. High levels of stratification at every level of society. Patriarchy, class division, and statehood are all features of every agricultural society known to history.
2. Endemic, destructive warfare, including war for conquest (impossible at the band/village level).
3. A proclivity toward ecological collapse.

During the Land Grab:

At the beginning, organic farmers (such as people currently living in ecovillages) are going to do pretty well. Wth permaculturists and horticulturists they share the disadvantage of being fixed to a place (only more so), which will make them targets; but the advantage of an abundant supply of food. The high populations they are able to support will given them an advantage in warfare.

A huge problem many current organic farming groups and ecovillages will face is that they tend to be pacifists. The only historical precedent we can look to is the Amish. This is a pacifist group, and has been able to maintain its pacifism through the protection of an outside state. Without the state to shelter them, pacifist groups will crumble.

Egalitarianism:

If today’s farmers adopt warfare to defend themselves, it is unlikely they will be able to maintain any kind of egalitarianism. Warfare tends to lead to male supremacy. Agriculture tends to lead to female subjugation, for the reason that in an agricultural setting, more children are always valuable. Hence women quickly become reduced to the status of breeders. Depending on their numbers, today’s ecovillagers may maintain some parity among the men for a time (as do the brutally misogynistic Yanomamo of South America). However, their constantly growing population (another inherent consequence of intensive agriculture) will eventually force them to elaborate their organizational structure—i.e., develop hierarchy.

If they do not adopt warfare, they will do one of three things:

1. Die.

2. Abandon agriculture (as the presence of the warlike, and their refusal to fight, forces them to pack up and go somewhere else…and somewhere else…until they become a society of travelers; perhaps hunter-gatherers, perhaps wandering merchants; perhaps wandering ascetic beggar-monks).

3. Recruit mercenaries to defend themselves. If you can be such a mercenary, you might be in a somewhat good position. Such a solution is likely to be unstable, as mercenaries tend to either kill their employers (returning us to option 1) or be absorbed into them (returning us to option 2). Or, what is even more likely, this solution will result in a new feudalism as the mercenaries become the new noble class (those who fight), and the ecovillagers the new peasant class (those who work).

If your neighbors are agriculturists, consider finding new neighbors.

Other Strategies

The crash is going to open up a variety of new niches in North America that we have never seen before. The abundance of civilizational detritus could lead to numerous tribes of scavengers. Perhaps wandering scrap-peddlars will turn up. To the extent that exotic animals such as camels, elephants, kangaroos, and emus already exist on this continent (in zoos and on private ranches), they will continue to do so after the collapse. Some may flourish. Indeed there is currently a plan to introduce elephants and other African animals into the American plains. Who knows what hunting and herding cultures may result?

Conclusions, and What To Do

We have two questions ahead of us: What do we want, and What do we NOT want. For me, and I think for most of you, what we want is a better culture—an anarchic, tribal, egalitarian culture. What we don’t want is to continue to be subjugated by civilization.

We’re approaching a critical period. A point at which there will be no more middle-road—a point at which, if we survive, we will survive either as free participants in established egalitarian societies or as a new class of serfs. We must know what we want, and we must have the will and the ability to fight fiercely for it—without losing it in the process of fighting for it.

I hope this exploration of these concepts has been helpful. I’m going to continue to explore this topic here. Above all, let’s continue to build our infrastructure and convert more people here and now, within the heart of the beast.

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Comments

  1. Rather than derail this entirely, I’ve started a new thread on why I don’t think we need to worry much about the war thing.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 28 September 2005 @ 9:00 PM

  2. God of moons I edited this poorly the first go-round. It’s better now.

    Jason–very well, sir, I accept.

    Comment by Steve Thomas — 28 September 2005 @ 10:01 PM

  3. It’s still 4000 words, though!

    Comment by JCamasto — 28 September 2005 @ 10:18 PM

  4. That’s the NaNoWriMo spirit, Jim! “Well, it may be crap, but at least it’s a hell of a lot of words.” (Not that Steve’s article is crap - quite the opposite, actually.)

    Damn, I can’t wait for November!

    Comment by Giulianna Lamanna — 29 September 2005 @ 6:53 AM

  5. I can appreciate the excitment of piling 50,000 words together for “National Novel Month” - and Steve’s last post is almost 1/10 there…

    But I was really refering to: “Holy shit,it’s still 4000 words - even [i]after[/i] editing!”

    I suppose this line of thinking is not gonna fly very far with this tribe… ;)

    Comment by JCamasto — 29 September 2005 @ 1:59 PM

  6. Are you implying that a piece of writing can be too… long…? :::blink blink blink:::

    Comment by Giulianna Lamanna — 29 September 2005 @ 2:14 PM

  7. Actually I’m a big believer in use 50 words rather than 500. And I readily call other people on it. But I’m a sufficently superior breed that I need not silence myself.

    Comment by Benjamin Shender — 29 September 2005 @ 2:18 PM

  8. Yeah, Ben, you just wait until other people grow so annoyed with you that they do the silencing for you. :)

    Comment by Devin Hammond — 29 September 2005 @ 7:08 PM

  9. Heh. Jim, editing was for cogency, not for length. In the original version, there were 10 or a dozen different places where sentences broke off in the middle, thoughts began but never finished, wordswerestucktogetherlikethis, and cetera.

    And that’s 4085 words.

    Comment by Steve Thomas — 29 September 2005 @ 8:57 PM

  10. editing was for cogency

    That’s why it was over my head!
    It is hugely excelextemporaneous! Sincerely.

    —–

    Besides, all I got for show is a puny romp in the junk-yard…

    Comment by JCamasto — 29 September 2005 @ 11:45 PM

  11. At least a “puny romp in the junk-yard” is something real, so you’ve got that over us intellectual wankers. :)

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 30 September 2005 @ 8:18 AM

  12. great piece. it analyzes the specifics of the coming chaos in greater detail than anything i’ve seen, and very astutely, i believe.

    here’s something i had read earlier that was short but sweet, especially the “community protection” part at the end of the page:

    http://www.worldux.com/commserious.html

    Comment by doomer — 2 October 2005 @ 12:05 PM

  13. good article, but a little to PC for me. I do have some questions.

    how do you propose to promulgate egalitarianism outside of your (tribe/confederation/insert relevant term here)?

    Second, were you serious when you said
    “Hunting seems to naturally become a male-based activity, for reasons which are unclear.” or is this a rhetorical statement?

    Third, you seem to have bias against alpha males. you said “Alpha-type individuals should be actively suppressed”. Are you suggesting take charge types should be murdered?

    Fourth, You can’t have “in which no individual has the power to command any other;” and also have ” in which the needs (biological and psychological) of every individual are met, or at least are met to the exact same extent to which the needs of every other individual are met;” at the same time. Specifically, If i don’t want to give a piece of the chicken i killed to billybob cause i don’t like him, and you supposedly can’t force me to give it him, then his needs aren’t being met, and egalitarianism has failed.
    Liberty and Equality are mutually exclusive, friend, regardless of what the French think.

    I found your article to be good overall, so please don’t think i am trying to just shit on you. I think you accurately gauge the situation from a variety of viewpoints, but i don’t quite see how you plan to promote/force egalitarianism outside of your group, nor can i find any reason to do so. Those that want it will have it, and those that prefer heirarchal(SP?)won’t.

    Comment by Rory — 4 October 2005 @ 5:05 PM

  14. I’m curious: why do all these end-of-civilization models neglect semi-archaic power sources like coal? The industrial revolution was mostly coal-powered until the end of the 19th century and beyond, and more importantly there’s enough coal in the ground to sustain an 1800-scale society for a long time. (A lot longer than the oil will last us.)

    Comment by khaine — 4 October 2005 @ 5:40 PM

  15. Rory:

    how do you propose to promulgate egalitarianism outside of your (tribe/confederation/insert relevant term here)?

    I’m not sure what you mean….

    Second, were you serious when you said
    “Hunting seems to naturally become a male-based activity, for reasons which are unclear.” or is this a rhetorical statement?

    Serious about what? That hunting tends to be a masculine activity or that the reasons aren’t clear (to me) why that should be the case? In the ethnographic record, I believe there is only one example of women on the whole taking as active a role in hunting as men (the Agta, I believe). A large number of American Indian cultures permitted women to hunt if they adopted the male gender role.

    Or is your point that the reason is obvious?

    Third, you seem to have bias against alpha males. you said “Alpha-type individuals should be actively suppressed”. Are you suggesting take charge types should be murdered?

    Yes, I have a bias against alpha males. When political and economic structures are removed, the only force for domination left is social. Should alpha males (and alpha females) be murdered? Only as an option of last resort. Treating domination-behavior as “rudeness” and responding appropriately (i.e., by socially isolating the individual) works in most cases. Heavier sanctions (isolation from food-sharing, etc) can be brought into play if that fails.

    i don’t quite see how you plan to promote/force egalitarianism outside of your group, nor can i find any reason to do so. Those that want it will have it, and those that prefer heirarchal(SP?)won’t.

    I’m pretty sure I agree entirely. I was writing for the benefit of those who do wish to live in an egalitarian setting.

    I’ll respond to your fourth point later (when I have more time). It’s more complicated than the others, and kind of cuts to the heart of what we’re doing here.

    I found your article to be good overall, so please don’t think i am trying to just shit on you.

    I didn’t think that. You raise important points. Thanks for the feedback.

    Comment by Steve Thomas — 4 October 2005 @ 6:41 PM

  16. I’m curious: why do all these end-of-civilization models neglect semi-archaic power sources like coal? The industrial revolution was mostly coal-powered until the end of the 19th century and beyond, and more importantly there’s enough coal in the ground to sustain an 1800-scale society for a long time. (A lot longer than the oil will last us.)

    There are no more easily accesible large-scale sources of coal. There are a few small, low-grade sources close to the surface, but nothing like enough to reenergize civilization. And the coal industry’s dirty little secret: mining is done with oil. Amusingly enough, currently wind, solar, hydro, and nuclear power plants and equiptment are also oil-based. Coal wasn’t neglected, it was discarded.

    Comment by Benjamin Shender — 4 October 2005 @ 7:04 PM

  17. There are no more easily accesible large-scale sources of coal. There are a few small, low-grade sources close to the surface, but nothing like enough to reenergize civilization. And the coal industry’s dirty little secret: mining is done with oil. Amusingly enough, currently wind, solar, hydro, and nuclear power plants and equiptment are also oil-based. Coal wasn’t neglected, it was discarded.

    There’s no question coal couldn’t be used to sustain civilization in its current energy-glutton state, and the end of the oil era (absent some other form of energy) will obviously entail a bit of regression, just not neccesarily to medieval levels. Again, though, the nations of the 19th century managed to do large-scale argiculture, transport, and warfare without oil. My crappy five-minute top-of-the-Google-list research shows the US consuming something like 10 million tons of coal annually in 1850, and our current demonstrated reserves standing at around 500 billion tons. Even if you can’t get at a lot of that without oil-based equipment, there’s still quite a bit…

    Comment by khaine — 4 October 2005 @ 7:23 PM

  18. I think the problem is one of picking all the low-hanging fruit first. The Industrial Revolution ran on coal, because you could literally walk out your door, bend over, and pick the stuff up. We’ve picked the surface deposits clean. Before we began going so deep that we needed oil-based machines to dig that far, we were pretty thorough about getting everything we could be any easier means. We only turned that deep when we had to. That means the coal is only accessible to an industrial civilization now. Great if you happen to have one, but if anything happens to that, you need the coal to get a new one–and you can’t get the coal you need to get a new one, unless you already have one. Catch 22.

    So, the question is, how much coal is there that’s close enough to the surface, that you can get to it without industrial machines? My guess would be, a very negligible amount. Yeah, it was a great romp; it’s too bad we trashed everything so badly in the process that no one else will ever be able to do it again.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 4 October 2005 @ 8:00 PM

  19. My crappy five-minute top-of-the-Google-list research shows the US consuming something like 10 million tons of coal annually in 1850, and our current demonstrated reserves standing at around 500 billion tons. Even if you can’t get at a lot of that without oil-based equipment, there’s still quite a bit…

    You still have the issue of it being a regression. In other words, it is a process, not a step function. When oil runs out the first thing civilization is going to do is burn through what other fossil fuels it has. My crappy five minute google based search (sorry Jason) showed that the US uses over 1 billion tons of coal a year as is, and that coal currently only accounts for 23% of our energy sources. Multiply that by 4 and you get 4 billion tons a year in a failing economy. The problem with mining coal low in the ground is that it is low in the ground. The stuff on the surface is gone, and most of the deeper mines aren’t even designed to be used without oil based equipment. Even with so much coal there, there simply is no way to get to it. If you can’t get to the coal, it’s useless.

    The second point I would want to make is the distinction between “reserves” and “strategic reserves.” (Mostly for the observers.) Reserves are how much we think we have in the ground. Strategic Reserves is the amount we have mined and stored, just in case. Our strategic coal reserves are a little lower than our coal reserves. In fact, ten minutes on the Deptartment of Energy’s website couldn’t confirm the existance of said strategic reserves.

    So:
    1) little hope of getting much more mined without oil
    2) running out of oil
    3) a huge need in the short term
    4) a short supply in the short term

    Therefore:
    No coal avaiable in large amounts in about 30-50 years.

    I could be wrong, that’s just my little ol’ two cents.

    Besides, early industrial was even worse for people than middle ages was in a lot of ways. At least in the middle ages people saw the outside once in a while.

    Comment by Benjamin Shender — 4 October 2005 @ 11:08 PM

  20. Mr. Thomas,

    The comment i made about men being hunters was poorly worded, sorry. I think the answer is an obvious few things, ranging from “men are adrenaline junkies” to “women’s bodies aren’t as adapted as males to hunting.” Not that women can’t do it, just it is hard to dodge a charging boar whilst a babe suckles on her breast. Probably the reason why th Amerindians made the women adopt male gender roles. Also, i personally would not let my female come hunting after the collapse, because if she dies, who am i going to impregnate?

    And my first question was ” HOw do you intend to get other groups to be egalitarian?”

    As far as alphas, i think your smartest bet is to kick them out, and if they refuse to leave, kill them. Alot of people are sycophants, and the ones who want to be the right hand man are worse than any leader. Sycophants will cajole leaders to action, and do alot of dirty work to assure their place in the heirachy. don’t think humans won’t stab in the back (or the face) to be higher on the totem pole, regardless how stupid the pole is to begin with.

    I am anxiously awaiting the response to question 4. I have had a similar arguement for months now, and I don’t seee a way out. In the end, it is a choice between positive and negative rights. I prefer negative rights, as they don’t give permission to do anything, whereas positive rights make the worst wrong ok.

    Rory

    Comment by Rory — 5 October 2005 @ 5:08 PM

  21. Hey –

    I don’t know where Steve is gonna go with your question #4, Rory… but pondering it a bit, I had a couple of thoughts… well, okay, one.

    I think I would reword your statement above: “liberty and Equality are mutually exclusive” to a stament like: you cannot legislate equality and liberty at the same time.

    In other words it is entirely possible for me to raise two children, treat them differently, yet give them equal value (egalitarianism) while at the same time providing both of them with full access to thier own potential and my support for thier potentials. (That’s poory worded, but I’m not sure how else to say it)

    In an egalitarian structure, you always have choice… but you also always have peer pressure. Peer pressure has gotten a bad rap in the modern US, but only because it reflects our usage of it to imply ‘…forcing someone to misbehave when they don’t want to’ It can also be used, however, to pressure others to do what they *should* do even if they don’t want to. Or the reverse. (to not do what perhaps they should avoid)

    So to use your example, I can NOT share my chicken with Joe — and then face Joe’s family and friends not talking to me for a week (understanding that someone else probably will share with him and therefore provide what he needs) or I can share with him and have less for myself. My choice, and Joe really doesn’t suffer too much. If, however, I consistantly do this, not only have a ticked off Joe’s family and friends, but eventually everyone in the group. At which point, my ‘choice’ has led to my early grave.

    Now let me clarify one other bit… you used the quote: “in which the needs (biological and psychological) of every individual are met, or at least are met to the exact same extent to which the needs of every other individual are met;” I don’t see this as being a terribly good explanation of what we are talking about (sorry Steve :-) ) in that it has a utopian quality to it. There will never be a world in which every individual has exactly the same anything…. the point, rather, is that everyone gets the goods some times, everyone deals with the not so good sometimes and over all, these variations even out into a fairly smooth line of equal value/access/place in the community as a whole.

    Janene

    Comment by Janene — 5 October 2005 @ 5:30 PM

  22. excellent response janene. i most certainly agree with “one cannot legislate both liberty and equality” as a much better statement.

    peer pressure was a factor i considered including, but i wanted to see what was said before probing deeper.

    yes, consistently being a dick will get you killed faster. no arguements here

    i guess i should have flat out asked if the “rights” of the assumed eglatarian node members are positive or negative.

    i get what you mean about treating your baby humans differently, but being equal value. you would still die for them both, right?

    overall, i understand the message verrry well. seems very similar DQ’s tribe. ups and downs, together. my pain/pleasure is yours and vice versa, right?

    Comment by Rory — 5 October 2005 @ 7:09 PM

  23. Janene did a good job of explaining things. And improving on my point.

    Yes, very similar to Quinn’s concept.

    Egalitarian economies hinge upon sharing wealth, resources, and labor. An individual has a choice as to whether to participate in this or not. If he chooses not to that’s his choice, and he is free to make it. But he chooses to forgoe the benefits (which, in a small society, one often has to draw upon).

    Comment by Steve Thomas — 5 October 2005 @ 9:31 PM

  24. What definition are we using for Alpha Male?

    Comment by Benjamin Shender — 6 October 2005 @ 12:05 AM

  25. I am happy to see the fixation on gender equality here. So here’s a thought. Why couldn’t we have a tribe based on feminist principles as taught in Womyn’s Studies programs? In order to combat sexism the women would handle the hunting and fighting tasks while the men assumed the role of stay-at-home dads. To make this work, so-called alpha females (think softball players) would be paired off with beta and omega males such as myself.

    This type of tribe would attract metrosexuals in droves.

    Comment by Beta male — 7 October 2005 @ 12:14 AM

  26. why settle for pairs…

    Comment by JCamasto — 7 October 2005 @ 12:54 AM

  27. Sure, why not, especially if you refer to a reverse polygamy where in one alpha female has half a dozen or so metrosexual house husbands.

    Comment by Beta male — 7 October 2005 @ 1:29 AM

  28. I don’t see how a reversal of present gender roles is “combating sexism.” It’s just replacing the inequality we have now with a slightly different kind of inequality.

    Why can’t we just let people be people? If a girl wants to hunt, let her hunt. If a guy wants to forage, let him forage. Same thing if a guy wants to hunt and a girl wants to forage. Why force anyone into any restrictive gender role?

    I know that I sure don’t want to hunt and fight. Nor do I want “half a dozen or so metrosexual house husbands.” (By the way, why do they have to be feminine in order to take the role of a “house husband”? Isn’t that just as sexist as forcing an actual woman to take that role?)

    In the society you describe, I’d feel just as restricted as I imagine I’d feel in 1950s America. I don’t want to take on the masculine role of hunting and fighting. It’s not in my nature. Nor do I want to be forced to do nothing but cook and clean and pop out babies. I want to be me. I was under the impression that tribes allowed people that option.

    Comment by Giulianna Lamanna — 7 October 2005 @ 8:18 AM

  29. “Reverse polygamy” is called polyandry. It is practiced … very rarely….

    Besides the fact that this is basically taking the natural, biological advantages that evolution has bestowed on the two genders and making sure you never use any of them …. it’s not the “patri” that bothers me, it’s the “archy,” so I don’t see how any matriarchy would be any better.

    That’s the problem with reactionary movements like feminism–they have a tendency to overshoot and end up with something just as bad, only in the other direction.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 7 October 2005 @ 8:31 AM

  30. I’m pretty sure “beta male” was being clever.

    Giuli: Very well said. I agree entirely.

    That’s the problem with reactionary movements like feminism–they have a tendency to overshoot and end up with something just as bad, only in the other direction.

    You’re generalizing…”Feminism” is hardly a unified movement.

    Comment by Steve Thomas — 7 October 2005 @ 12:15 PM

  31. No, it’s not, which is why I spoke of a tendency and nothing more. There’s a very wide umbrella that covers “feminism,” and some of them I couldn’t agree more with, and some of them would simply replace one kind of oppression with another. Not every Enlightenment philosopher went totally overboard in their reaction to religion, either, but there was a definite tendency in the Enlightenment as a whole to overshoot and end up with something equally wrong, only in the other direction.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 7 October 2005 @ 12:35 PM

  32. I’m curious: why do all these end-of-civilization models neglect semi-archaic power sources like coal? The industrial revolution was mostly coal-powered until the end of the 19th century and beyond, and more importantly there’s enough coal in the ground to sustain an 1800-scale society for a long time. (A lot longer than the oil will last us.)

    The estimated supply of coal is 2 trillion tons. And yes, you can wrench oil out of coal. In fact, as we speak, about 23 percent of all energy of the world comes from coal.

    But the down side to this is that coal will run out eventually, too. Some say it will last 18 years, others say longer. And that’s not all. We’d have to adapt all of our factories and power plants and refineries, which would require HUGE investments. And then, coal is another very dirty fossil fuel. It chokes up the atmosphere even more than oil does.

    Comment by hassysmacker — 30 March 2006 @ 10:43 PM

  33. “Reverse polygamy” made me laugh. Polygamy means multiple spouses for someone, no gender implied. Thus no way to reverse it. Multiple wives is polygyny. And as Jason pointed out, multiple husbands is polyandry.

    Comment by ChandraShakti — 4 April 2006 @ 9:39 AM

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