You seem to be arguing for approaching the rural communes that were common in the 1960s and 70s, except within a city and with all the amenities of the city. But those amenities all result from our giving up power in those fields do they not? I freely allow the mayor of my city and governor of my state ability to setup and regulate power, fire, police, garbage, etc. so I have more free time to devote to friends and “leisure” activities. So I have my degree of tribalism within the current hierarchical state. How is what you want different?

I can’t speak for Steve, but what I want is independence. Humans are naturally tribal. We “revert” to tribalism whenever we can no longer afford the “luxury” of dehumanizing hierarchy. We need a certain amount of tribalism even then, but it must always be dependent on hierarchy–after all, who would submit to it if they didn’t require it for survival?

But of course, that’s not necessary. Tribes were able to exist for a million years without that. It’s a popular myth that we can’t handle ourselves without someone telling us what to do–popular, but a myth nonetheless. For a million years, tribes organized all those amenities without needing to sacrifice any of their liberty. We’ve given up our liberty, in order to have certain amenities. The kicker is, we already had all those amenities before we gave up our liberty–our liberty was never necessary–so what did we really sacrifice it for?

This is driving me nuts. I’m trying to remember if it was you, or Jeff Vail, who talked about how one way for communities to regain some degree of autonomy is by having their own power generating sources. This occurred sometime last fall, IIRC. Now at first blush this sounds more like Vailian thing, but then again you write extensively about how everything in civilization hinges on energy.

While I’ve written a great deal about that topic, too, I think you’re referring to Jeff Vail’s “Energy, Society & Hierarchy.”

This is driving me nuts. I’m trying to remember if it was you, or Jeff Vail, who talked about how one way for communities to regain some degree of autonomy is by having their own power generating sources. This occurred sometime last fall, IIRC. Now at first blush this sounds more like Vailian thing, but then again you write extensively about how everything in civilization hinges on energy.

Was that you? If it was, do you recall where you might have sdaid it?

Are you not describing a loose tribal network all under the taken-for-granted hierarchical umbrella of a society that provides the wherewithall for groups of people. A society the provides water, power, garbage removal, police and firepeople, etc. That is pretty much what we have now!

You seem to be arguing for approaching the rural communes that were common in the 1960s and 70s, except within a city and with all the amenities of the city. But those amenities all result from our giving up power in those fields do they not? I freely allow the mayor of my city and governor of my state ability to setup and regulate power, fire, police, garbage, etc. so I have more free time to devote to friends and “leisure” activities. So I have my degree of tribalism within the current hierarchical state. How is what you want different?

Gary

Whoa. Shaman in training.