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	<title>Comments on: Thesis #12: Civilization must always grow.</title>
	<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/</link>
	<description>se wo were fi na wosan kofa a yenki</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Anthropik Network &#187; Thesis #19: Complexity ensures collapse.</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-168858</link>
		<dc:creator>The Anthropik Network &#187; Thesis #19: Complexity ensures collapse.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-168858</guid>
		<description>[...] we have already seen, civilization must always grow (thesis #12 and thesis #13). That kind of competition creates an environment where building redundancy is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] we have already seen, civilization must always grow (thesis #12 and thesis #13). That kind of competition creates an environment where building redundancy is [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-51330</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-51330</guid>
		<description>On the contrary, Tainter actually makes the case that &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; a civilization in isolation can collapse.  The key is that the Prisoner's Dilemna does not operate only on an "inter-civilizational" level.  It exists at every level of civilization, because the means to increase energy exist.  Look at our own society.  The United States and England are obviously members of the same civilization, but below the level of "civilizations," there's the level of nation-states, and they too exist in a Prisoner's Dilemna.  The U.S. and the U.K. are allied because they have common enemies, but they are still in competition with one another.  Because their means to compete are roughly equal, they remain at the same level of complexity, and neither one can pull ahead, so their alliance is maintained.  There is also the corporate level; here, there is greater disparity between one corporation's ability to compete and another's, so the nature of the competition is more evident.  Even at the individual household level, competition spurs on increasing complexity: in the United States, few workers take their vacation days, because of a Prisoner's Dilemna.  A co-worker who takes off fewer days might get the promotion, or keep the job, while you do not.  The result is that as quickly as the average number of vacation days in the U.S. dwindles, Americans using them dwindles even more quickly.

Even in isolation, a civilization where everyone farms, there's no specialization and the surplus is only used in emergencies is going to either violate one or more of those rules almost immediately, or fly apart at the seams.  It won't take long for some of these farmers to realize that they're toiling several times more than they would have to following a horticultural or hunter-gatherer way of life.  It's specialization and the use of surplus to support specialization that makes the arrangement viable.  Without that, there's no reason to keep farming; you can have enough  food for yourself and your family with far less effort any number of ways.  Participation is extracted through some combination of (1) the promise of becoming part of the elite, and (2) forceful extraction by the elite (i.e., "I'd run off, but then how would I pay my taxes/hunting licenses/whatever?")</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the contrary, Tainter actually makes the case that <em>only</em> a civilization in isolation can collapse.  The key is that the Prisoner&#8217;s Dilemna does not operate only on an &#8220;inter-civilizational&#8221; level.  It exists at every level of civilization, because the means to increase energy exist.  Look at our own society.  The United States and England are obviously members of the same civilization, but below the level of &#8220;civilizations,&#8221; there&#8217;s the level of nation-states, and they too exist in a Prisoner&#8217;s Dilemna.  The U.S. and the U.K. are allied because they have common enemies, but they are still in competition with one another.  Because their means to compete are roughly equal, they remain at the same level of complexity, and neither one can pull ahead, so their alliance is maintained.  There is also the corporate level; here, there is greater disparity between one corporation&#8217;s ability to compete and another&#8217;s, so the nature of the competition is more evident.  Even at the individual household level, competition spurs on increasing complexity: in the United States, few workers take their vacation days, because of a Prisoner&#8217;s Dilemna.  A co-worker who takes off fewer days might get the promotion, or keep the job, while you do not.  The result is that as quickly as the average number of vacation days in the U.S. dwindles, Americans using them dwindles even more quickly.</p>
<p>Even in isolation, a civilization where everyone farms, there&#8217;s no specialization and the surplus is only used in emergencies is going to either violate one or more of those rules almost immediately, or fly apart at the seams.  It won&#8217;t take long for some of these farmers to realize that they&#8217;re toiling several times more than they would have to following a horticultural or hunter-gatherer way of life.  It&#8217;s specialization and the use of surplus to support specialization that makes the arrangement viable.  Without that, there&#8217;s no reason to keep farming; you can have enough  food for yourself and your family with far less effort any number of ways.  Participation is extracted through some combination of (1) the promise of becoming part of the elite, and (2) forceful extraction by the elite (i.e., &#8220;I&#8217;d run off, but then how would I pay my taxes/hunting licenses/whatever?&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: locke</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-51329</link>
		<dc:creator>locke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-51329</guid>
		<description>Jason,

This is one of your arguments that many of the people I've pointed towards your work take issue with.  The Prisoner's Dilemma argument works when multiple civilizations in competition are involved, but it doesn't work for an isolated civilization.

A "civilization" could be somewhat sustainable (at least until the soil is depleted) as long as everyone farms, there's no specialization, and the surplus is only used in emergencies.

The problem comes when specialized and unproductive classes are created.  Creating a formalized economy along with them.  The population will always rise to the surplus, but the surplus is also required for the economy.  Since this requires the surplus to be able to circulate around the economy, you can't restrict it to emergency usage anymore.  So the population will grow 
to the surplus, requiring a new surplus to fuel the economy and thus expansion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason,</p>
<p>This is one of your arguments that many of the people I&#8217;ve pointed towards your work take issue with.  The Prisoner&#8217;s Dilemma argument works when multiple civilizations in competition are involved, but it doesn&#8217;t work for an isolated civilization.</p>
<p>A &#8220;civilization&#8221; could be somewhat sustainable (at least until the soil is depleted) as long as everyone farms, there&#8217;s no specialization, and the surplus is only used in emergencies.</p>
<p>The problem comes when specialized and unproductive classes are created.  Creating a formalized economy along with them.  The population will always rise to the surplus, but the surplus is also required for the economy.  Since this requires the surplus to be able to circulate around the economy, you can&#8217;t restrict it to emergency usage anymore.  So the population will grow<br />
to the surplus, requiring a new surplus to fuel the economy and thus expansion.</p>
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		<title>By: gg3</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-47788</link>
		<dc:creator>gg3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-47788</guid>
		<description>More than anything else, it's globalization of the economy that favors single-iteration over multiple-iteration.  In the past, a badguy could rape &#38; pillage only his own country before being brought down; now the world is his for the picking.  

---

The growth/conquest dynamic is not limited to complex societies, or agricultural (or conventional-industrial) societies.  For example we see the existence of wars of conquest and slavery in tribal cultures around the world (e.g. in Africa and in the Pacific Northwest, both cases before contact with Europeans).

The underlying dynamics, of population growth and desire for material things, are the result of instincts for reproduction and consumption that are hard-wired at the chimpanzee level (baby chimps, like baby humans, will reach out and grasp at objects that are literally shiny (or sparkly) and  new).  

Complexity and growth are symptoms of these deeper flaws, not first causes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More than anything else, it&#8217;s globalization of the economy that favors single-iteration over multiple-iteration.  In the past, a badguy could rape &amp; pillage only his own country before being brought down; now the world is his for the picking.  </p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>The growth/conquest dynamic is not limited to complex societies, or agricultural (or conventional-industrial) societies.  For example we see the existence of wars of conquest and slavery in tribal cultures around the world (e.g. in Africa and in the Pacific Northwest, both cases before contact with Europeans).</p>
<p>The underlying dynamics, of population growth and desire for material things, are the result of instincts for reproduction and consumption that are hard-wired at the chimpanzee level (baby chimps, like baby humans, will reach out and grasp at objects that are literally shiny (or sparkly) and  new).  </p>
<p>Complexity and growth are symptoms of these deeper flaws, not first causes.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Jensen</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-47152</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-47152</guid>
		<description>If civilization is required to have continual growth in order to succeed against other competing societies, then what happens when there is no other competing society? In this case, there is no pressure from an outside source to drive the complexity. Theoretically, a civilization that had outcompeted its competitors would no longer have any drive to grow and could choose to cease growth or even simplify. Now, I'm sure they'd keep trying to grow from Habit, and the collapse could happen before a successful transition to a sustainable strategy. But the same global monoculture that gives the coming crash the opportunity to be much more devastating than others before it also seems to offer the possibility of endig the prisoners dilemma once and for all. 

Not that I think it's likely, but perhaps it is possible. More likely competing groups within the monoculture will continue to drive complexity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If civilization is required to have continual growth in order to succeed against other competing societies, then what happens when there is no other competing society? In this case, there is no pressure from an outside source to drive the complexity. Theoretically, a civilization that had outcompeted its competitors would no longer have any drive to grow and could choose to cease growth or even simplify. Now, I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;d keep trying to grow from Habit, and the collapse could happen before a successful transition to a sustainable strategy. But the same global monoculture that gives the coming crash the opportunity to be much more devastating than others before it also seems to offer the possibility of endig the prisoners dilemma once and for all. </p>
<p>Not that I think it&#8217;s likely, but perhaps it is possible. More likely competing groups within the monoculture will continue to drive complexity.</p>
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		<title>By: Sermon to the Sun Worshippers (The Anthropik Network)</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-28736</link>
		<dc:creator>Sermon to the Sun Worshippers (The Anthropik Network)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Nov 2006 17:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-28736</guid>
		<description>[...] Proponents of solar energy have pointed out that covering just 2% of the earth's land surface would produce enough photovoltaic energy to replace the electricity use of the whole world. Of course, this is an unbelievably terrifying thought. While fossil fuels provide limits to growth that cap human civilization's destructiveness at about its current level, Jevons Paradox has turned every technology that has ever been aimed at preserving natural resources into a greater consumer, not lesser. Schemes to reduce the amount of land needed for farming, for instance, have often been justified in terms of providing more land for "wilderness," but they invariably result in less "wilderness," because land use becomes more efficient. As we know, civilization is always compelled to grow.4 If today's energy needs can be met with just 2% of the earth's land surface covered in photovoltaic cells, why not support 13 billion people with 4%? Or 26 billion with 8%? Collapse remains inevitable even in this case, but whereas before the limits to growth were set by relatively benign problems like peak oil, now the limit is much higher—the point at which so much of the earth's surface is covered in PV cells that we cause cascades of plant extinctions simply for lack of sunlight, and cut off the food chain at its base. The plan to replace our current energy usage with photovoltaics is, on the surface, the ultimate worst case scenario; it could be the deus ex machina that will allow us to delay collapse once again, but that delay is the first one to preclude any chance of survival for the human species. Indeed, it raises the terrifying prospect of the end of all multicellular life on this planet. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Proponents of solar energy have pointed out that covering just 2% of the earth&#8217;s land surface would produce enough photovoltaic energy to replace the electricity use of the whole world. Of course, this is an unbelievably terrifying thought. While fossil fuels provide limits to growth that cap human civilization&#8217;s destructiveness at about its current level, Jevons Paradox has turned every technology that has ever been aimed at preserving natural resources into a greater consumer, not lesser. Schemes to reduce the amount of land needed for farming, for instance, have often been justified in terms of providing more land for &#8220;wilderness,&#8221; but they invariably result in less &#8220;wilderness,&#8221; because land use becomes more efficient. As we know, civilization is always compelled to grow.4 If today&#8217;s energy needs can be met with just 2% of the earth&#8217;s land surface covered in photovoltaic cells, why not support 13 billion people with 4%? Or 26 billion with 8%? Collapse remains inevitable even in this case, but whereas before the limits to growth were set by relatively benign problems like peak oil, now the limit is much higher—the point at which so much of the earth&#8217;s surface is covered in PV cells that we cause cascades of plant extinctions simply for lack of sunlight, and cut off the food chain at its base. The plan to replace our current energy usage with photovoltaics is, on the surface, the ultimate worst case scenario; it could be the deus ex machina that will allow us to delay collapse once again, but that delay is the first one to preclude any chance of survival for the human species. Indeed, it raises the terrifying prospect of the end of all multicellular life on this planet. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Kt.</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-28624</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Kt.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 17:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-28624</guid>
		<description>gjsonke wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;If a population decreases in size, is it inevitable that the economy also decreases? What about steady state populations? And is this bad for the wellfare? Because I would imagine that there is less need for sustainance, there will be less need for economic growth?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I may digress from strict economic terminology, and am not sure if I miss the point, but I'd like to expand on this a little:

In the big picture, as has been stated elsewhere on this site, actual consumption bears less importance than the ecological footprint. The conversion rate of resources to waste which economic activity entails, as compared to nature's capability to replenish those resources, determines how much of this activity can take place, and for how long. Population size can be linked to economic activity and ecological footprint, but that relationship does not appear to be proportional, because small populations can have the biggest ecological footprint per individual, while our large amount of poor people today each have a rather small footprint. One way or another, we cannot sustain the total footprint of today's human population.

Now, concerning welfare in the economic sense, it appears that a certain amount of activity per individual is necessary. If one does not have enough energy, one dies. On the other end of the scale, one runs into diminishing marginal returns on material wealth: At some point, an exquisite meal which a poor person would long for all year, will be taken for granted. While civilisation promises material wealth for everyone, a promise it cannot keep, the value of immaterial 'goods' like community, joy, love, respect, you name it, rises.

Those goods take energy to procure, but generally much less so than production of material goods. Yet, the economics profession only counts material goods and translates those to wealth, forming the basis of calculation of economic growth. This results in an apparent disconnect between economic growth or decline and personal well-being.

A smaller population can induce a rise in economic activity. A steady state population nevertheless needs resources and will deplete them if it exists above the replenishment rate of said resources, which is bad for the welfare in the long run. If there is less need for sustenance, there is &lt;em&gt;no&lt;/em&gt; need for economic growth regarding vital goods ;-). But as our society is based upon its production of goods beyond the vital amount, there is little connection between need and actual consumption right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gjsonke wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>If a population decreases in size, is it inevitable that the economy also decreases? What about steady state populations? And is this bad for the wellfare? Because I would imagine that there is less need for sustainance, there will be less need for economic growth?</p></blockquote>
<p>I may digress from strict economic terminology, and am not sure if I miss the point, but I&#8217;d like to expand on this a little:</p>
<p>In the big picture, as has been stated elsewhere on this site, actual consumption bears less importance than the ecological footprint. The conversion rate of resources to waste which economic activity entails, as compared to nature&#8217;s capability to replenish those resources, determines how much of this activity can take place, and for how long. Population size can be linked to economic activity and ecological footprint, but that relationship does not appear to be proportional, because small populations can have the biggest ecological footprint per individual, while our large amount of poor people today each have a rather small footprint. One way or another, we cannot sustain the total footprint of today&#8217;s human population.</p>
<p>Now, concerning welfare in the economic sense, it appears that a certain amount of activity per individual is necessary. If one does not have enough energy, one dies. On the other end of the scale, one runs into diminishing marginal returns on material wealth: At some point, an exquisite meal which a poor person would long for all year, will be taken for granted. While civilisation promises material wealth for everyone, a promise it cannot keep, the value of immaterial &#8216;goods&#8217; like community, joy, love, respect, you name it, rises.</p>
<p>Those goods take energy to procure, but generally much less so than production of material goods. Yet, the economics profession only counts material goods and translates those to wealth, forming the basis of calculation of economic growth. This results in an apparent disconnect between economic growth or decline and personal well-being.</p>
<p>A smaller population can induce a rise in economic activity. A steady state population nevertheless needs resources and will deplete them if it exists above the replenishment rate of said resources, which is bad for the welfare in the long run. If there is less need for sustenance, there is <em>no</em> need for economic growth regarding vital goods ;-). But as our society is based upon its production of goods beyond the vital amount, there is little connection between need and actual consumption right now.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-28618</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-28618</guid>
		<description>Inevitable?  No--you could increase per-capita production in tandem with population decrease to keep the economy at the same size.  It would be "bad for welfare" insofar as it means everyone in the society has to work that much harder--unless, of course, you're OK with economic contraction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Inevitable?  No&#8211;you could increase per-capita production in tandem with population decrease to keep the economy at the same size.  It would be &#8220;bad for welfare&#8221; insofar as it means everyone in the society has to work that much harder&#8211;unless, of course, you&#8217;re OK with economic contraction.</p>
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		<title>By: gjsonke@xs4all.nl</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-28490</link>
		<dc:creator>gjsonke@xs4all.nl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 18:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-28490</guid>
		<description>If a population decreases in size, is it inevitable that the economy also decreases? What about steady state populations? And is this bad for the wellfare? Because I would imagine that there is less need for sustainance, there will be less need for economic growth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a population decreases in size, is it inevitable that the economy also decreases? What about steady state populations? And is this bad for the wellfare? Because I would imagine that there is less need for sustainance, there will be less need for economic growth?</p>
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		<title>By: Thesis #16: Technology cannot stop collapse. (The Anthropik Network)</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-26422</link>
		<dc:creator>Thesis #16: Technology cannot stop collapse. (The Anthropik Network)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/10/thesis-12-civilization-must-always-grow/#comment-26422</guid>
		<description>[...] Unless, of course, technology can deploy a solution to that, as well. That is the promise the techno-salvationist offers: to solve every problem just in the nick of time, thanks to the market forces that compel innovation, and eventually, to leave the earth behind and move from planet to planet, consuming the resources we need, and moving on. Most of them say we will "sow life throughout the universe" with such a plan, but they're neglecting a very basic fact: that our civilization is not devastating our planet because it is evil, but because these problems are systemic. Every resource has some rate at which it is replenished. Sometimes, that rate is "zero," but even fossil fuels are replenished over a sufficiently long time scale. Thus, the distinction between sustainable and unsustainable is the rate at which that resource is consumed--whether it is consumed faster, or slower, than it is replenished. Because complexity creates a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop (see thesis #12), complexity is a function of energy, and energy is obtained from resources, even a complex society that begins with sustainable practices must eventually become unsustainable as its complexity increases, and its need for more energy grows. Thus, civilization can never spread life through the universe. The brightest hope the techno-salvationist can offer is to become the alien villains of science fiction movies like Independence Day. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Unless, of course, technology can deploy a solution to that, as well. That is the promise the techno-salvationist offers: to solve every problem just in the nick of time, thanks to the market forces that compel innovation, and eventually, to leave the earth behind and move from planet to planet, consuming the resources we need, and moving on. Most of them say we will &#8220;sow life throughout the universe&#8221; with such a plan, but they&#8217;re neglecting a very basic fact: that our civilization is not devastating our planet because it is evil, but because these problems are systemic. Every resource has some rate at which it is replenished. Sometimes, that rate is &#8220;zero,&#8221; but even fossil fuels are replenished over a sufficiently long time scale. Thus, the distinction between sustainable and unsustainable is the rate at which that resource is consumed&#8211;whether it is consumed faster, or slower, than it is replenished. Because complexity creates a self-reinforcing positive feedback loop (see thesis #12), complexity is a function of energy, and energy is obtained from resources, even a complex society that begins with sustainable practices must eventually become unsustainable as its complexity increases, and its need for more energy grows. Thus, civilization can never spread life through the universe. The brightest hope the techno-salvationist can offer is to become the alien villains of science fiction movies like Independence Day. [&#8230;]</p>
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