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	<title>Comments on: Thesis #19: Complexity ensures collapse.</title>
	<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/</link>
	<description>se wo were fi na wosan kofa a yenki</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Baptist Faith and Mess &#171; WildeRix</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-136901</link>
		<dc:creator>The Baptist Faith and Mess &#171; WildeRix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-136901</guid>
		<description>[...] I realize I&#8217;m stepping out here and putting on a sandwich board that identifies me as a certifiable wack job, but guess what?  THE END IS NEAR!  And global warming is only one of the things you should be worrying about.  The oil is going to run out (for all practical intents and purposes).  When that happens, civilization will start grinding to a halt.  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] I realize I&#8217;m stepping out here and putting on a sandwich board that identifies me as a certifiable wack job, but guess what?  THE END IS NEAR!  And global warming is only one of the things you should be worrying about.  The oil is going to run out (for all practical intents and purposes).  When that happens, civilization will start grinding to a halt.  [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Resiliency &#38; Collapse (The Anthropik Network)</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-23185</link>
		<dc:creator>Resiliency &#38; Collapse (The Anthropik Network)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-23185</guid>
		<description>[...] This short clip features Thomas Homer-Dixon, author of The Ingenuity Gap, talking about the 2003 blackout as an example of complexity, resiliency, and the potential for collapse&#8212;exactly what I was trying to get to in the weakest of the Thirty Theses, thesis #19. Homer-Dixon notes that we're moving in the opposite direction from the resiliency that complexity requires; I was trying to explain why we're compelled to do exactly that. I haven't read The Ingenuity Gap yet, but I think it has to be the next book I read. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] This short clip features Thomas Homer-Dixon, author of The Ingenuity Gap, talking about the 2003 blackout as an example of complexity, resiliency, and the potential for collapse&mdash;exactly what I was trying to get to in the weakest of the Thirty Theses, thesis #19. Homer-Dixon notes that we&#8217;re moving in the opposite direction from the resiliency that complexity requires; I was trying to explain why we&#8217;re compelled to do exactly that. I haven&#8217;t read The Ingenuity Gap yet, but I think it has to be the next book I read. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-23102</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 14:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-23102</guid>
		<description>Note to self: &lt;a href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/09/catastrophic_bl.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;escalating probability of disaster&lt;/a&gt;.

Anonymous: if you flip through the earlier theses, you'll see I rely heavily on Tainter's work, and cite him directly earlier on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note to self: <a href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/09/catastrophic_bl.html" rel="nofollow">escalating probability of disaster</a>.</p>
<p>Anonymous: if you flip through the earlier theses, you&#8217;ll see I rely heavily on Tainter&#8217;s work, and cite him directly earlier on.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-22290</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 01:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-22290</guid>
		<description>A similar idea was reached by Joseph Tainter in his Collapse of Complex Societies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A similar idea was reached by Joseph Tainter in his Collapse of Complex Societies.</p>
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		<title>By: Wombaticus Rex</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6701</link>
		<dc:creator>Wombaticus Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 21:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6701</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the brainfood, I definitely don't agree with you (or anything Gould says), but I will keep digging and perhaps realize I'm wrong.  Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the brainfood, I definitely don&#8217;t agree with you (or anything Gould says), but I will keep digging and perhaps realize I&#8217;m wrong.  Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6684</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Mar 2006 15:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6684</guid>
		<description>John Robb, "&lt;a href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/03/journal_big_ban.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Big Bangs&lt;/a&gt;":

&lt;blockquote&gt;If we look at today's global environment we see a moderately unstable system. Our global interconnectivity has outpaced our ability to dampen excess. It is a relatively high performance system that is increasingly controlled by global markets. The old dampening functions of borders, distance, government, etc are quickly fading. The problem is that this is a system that can quickly reach for excess whenever rogue feedback is introduced. Worse, there are people actively working on ways to introduce this rogue feedback. The long-term solution to this, is to both build more stability into the system (decentralization) and to create dynamic market-places for security that will aid us in quickly dampening rogue feedback. Unfortunately, we are far from realizing that goal, since our current view of the world is based on old models.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Robb, &#8220;<a href="http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2006/03/journal_big_ban.html" rel="nofollow">Big Bangs</a>&#8220;:</p>
<blockquote><p>If we look at today&#8217;s global environment we see a moderately unstable system. Our global interconnectivity has outpaced our ability to dampen excess. It is a relatively high performance system that is increasingly controlled by global markets. The old dampening functions of borders, distance, government, etc are quickly fading. The problem is that this is a system that can quickly reach for excess whenever rogue feedback is introduced. Worse, there are people actively working on ways to introduce this rogue feedback. The long-term solution to this, is to both build more stability into the system (decentralization) and to create dynamic market-places for security that will aid us in quickly dampening rogue feedback. Unfortunately, we are far from realizing that goal, since our current view of the world is based on old models.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6639</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6639</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;and the entire thrust of life's evolution on Earth has been towards greater and greater complexity&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It hasn't.  See &lt;a href="http://anthropik.com/2005/07/thesis-2-evolution-is-the-result-of-diversity/" rel="nofollow"&gt;thesis #2&lt;/a&gt;, or Gould's &lt;em&gt;Full House&lt;/em&gt;.  Evolution drives towards diversity, not necessarily complexity.

The collapse of greater complexity is here referring to social complexity, not necessarily biological complexity, but there's a certain anologue here, as well: there does appear to be an asymptote of biological complexity.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, like Diamond, you make a great deal out of previous civilizations collapsing, but Jason, THEY KEEP COMING BACK. And they're more complex every single time.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not really.  There have been about six autochthonous civilizations.  Each one must keep on growing.  All but one of them collapsed; the last one now fills up the whole world.

Very rarely has a civilization "come back."  More often, other civilizations around it carry on, continue expanding, and bring everything around to a new, higher level of complexity, until it collapses again.  (In the case of Rome, see Byzantium and Ireland).

In this particular case, it's endgame--because there are no more civilizations to carry on after this one falls, and the resources to rebuild are beyond any primitive society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>and the entire thrust of life&#8217;s evolution on Earth has been towards greater and greater complexity</p></blockquote>
<p>It hasn&#8217;t.  See <a href="http://anthropik.com/2005/07/thesis-2-evolution-is-the-result-of-diversity/" rel="nofollow">thesis #2</a>, or Gould&#8217;s <em>Full House</em>.  Evolution drives towards diversity, not necessarily complexity.</p>
<p>The collapse of greater complexity is here referring to social complexity, not necessarily biological complexity, but there&#8217;s a certain anologue here, as well: there does appear to be an asymptote of biological complexity.</p>
<blockquote><p>Also, like Diamond, you make a great deal out of previous civilizations collapsing, but Jason, THEY KEEP COMING BACK. And they&#8217;re more complex every single time.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not really.  There have been about six autochthonous civilizations.  Each one must keep on growing.  All but one of them collapsed; the last one now fills up the whole world.</p>
<p>Very rarely has a civilization &#8220;come back.&#8221;  More often, other civilizations around it carry on, continue expanding, and bring everything around to a new, higher level of complexity, until it collapses again.  (In the case of Rome, see Byzantium and Ireland).</p>
<p>In this particular case, it&#8217;s endgame&#8211;because there are no more civilizations to carry on after this one falls, and the resources to rebuild are beyond any primitive society.</p>
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		<title>By: Wombaticus Rex</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6638</link>
		<dc:creator>Wombaticus Rex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6638</guid>
		<description>If complexity ensures collapse --- and the entire thrust of life's evolution on Earth has been towards greater and greater complexity --- how did the last four to six billion years happen?  How are we here? 

I haven't seen you draw a distinction between types of complexity.  Certainly just adding more nodes to a network won't improve computation speeds beyond a 10-13% increase, but that's just complexity for it's own sake.  Evolution clearly provides us with a robust complexity, because it's been working for one hell of a long time.

Also, like Diamond, you make a great deal out of previous civilizations collapsing, but Jason, THEY KEEP COMING BACK.  And they're more complex every single time.

I just don't see how any of this stands up to mathematical or biologial facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If complexity ensures collapse &#8212; and the entire thrust of life&#8217;s evolution on Earth has been towards greater and greater complexity &#8212; how did the last four to six billion years happen?  How are we here? </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t seen you draw a distinction between types of complexity.  Certainly just adding more nodes to a network won&#8217;t improve computation speeds beyond a 10-13% increase, but that&#8217;s just complexity for it&#8217;s own sake.  Evolution clearly provides us with a robust complexity, because it&#8217;s been working for one hell of a long time.</p>
<p>Also, like Diamond, you make a great deal out of previous civilizations collapsing, but Jason, THEY KEEP COMING BACK.  And they&#8217;re more complex every single time.</p>
<p>I just don&#8217;t see how any of this stands up to mathematical or biologial facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Larson</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6558</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Larson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-6558</guid>
		<description>Resulting complexity:

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/060224/b0224122.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Resulting complexity:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/060224/b0224122.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/060224/b0224122.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Richard</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-5584</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2005/12/thesis-19-complexity-ensures-collapse/#comment-5584</guid>
		<description>For a new approach to the evolution of complexity visit my website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a new approach to the evolution of complexity visit my website.</p>
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