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	<title>Comments on: Thesis #26: Collapse is inevitable.</title>
	<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/</link>
	<description>se wo were fi na wosan kofa a yenki</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Collapse in Inevitable &#171; Walking Green</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-181316</link>
		<dc:creator>Collapse in Inevitable &#171; Walking Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 04:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-181316</guid>
		<description>[...] this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] this [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Feeding the Parasite &#171; Rugged Indoorsman</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-178491</link>
		<dc:creator>Feeding the Parasite &#171; Rugged Indoorsman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-178491</guid>
		<description>[...] fact a defining feature of our culture&#8217;s collapse, as Anthropik Jason argues, may be that since it&#8217;s never allowed to run it&#8217;s full course - localised collapses [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] fact a defining feature of our culture&#8217;s collapse, as Anthropik Jason argues, may be that since it&#8217;s never allowed to run it&#8217;s full course - localised collapses [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Earth Needs Renewed Attention to Human Population Growth &#171; Growth is Madness!</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-174766</link>
		<dc:creator>Earth Needs Renewed Attention to Human Population Growth &#171; Growth is Madness!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 22:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-174766</guid>
		<description>[...] Paul&#8217;s reassessment of some of the basis of his analysis.] Or see Jason Godesky&#8217;s argument that collapse is inevitable.) If so, reducing fertility rates would serve not as a solution per se, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Paul&#8217;s reassessment of some of the basis of his analysis.] Or see Jason Godesky&#8217;s argument that collapse is inevitable.) If so, reducing fertility rates would serve not as a solution per se, [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: LifeParticles.com &#187; The New Tribal Revolution</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-161196</link>
		<dc:creator>LifeParticles.com &#187; The New Tribal Revolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2007 23:35:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-161196</guid>
		<description>[...] Is Neo-tribalism [rand.org, PDF, 297 KB] humanity&#8217;s future? An ideology influenced by the Ishmael series by Daniel Quinn and that predicts the collapse of society and the necessity of â€?walking awayâ€?, it&#8217;s growing globally with neo-tribes already established. The Anthropik Tribe&#8217;s goal is to ultimately form a &#34;functional hunter-gatherer tribe in the future&#34;. Anthropik is part of The Appalachian Confederation, a /neo-tribal league/tribe of tribes/rhizome/ with it&#8217;s own council, annual festival and plans for an army. Also, check out this movie about modern tribalism. Related Posts: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Is Neo-tribalism [rand.org, PDF, 297 KB] humanity&#8217;s future? An ideology influenced by the Ishmael series by Daniel Quinn and that predicts the collapse of society and the necessity of â€?walking awayâ€?, it&#8217;s growing globally with neo-tribes already established. The Anthropik Tribe&#8217;s goal is to ultimately form a &quot;functional hunter-gatherer tribe in the future&quot;. Anthropik is part of The Appalachian Confederation, a /neo-tribal league/tribe of tribes/rhizome/ with it&#8217;s own council, annual festival and plans for an army. Also, check out this movie about modern tribalism. Related Posts: [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-146517</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 14:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-146517</guid>
		<description>What would a "highly dispersed, more adjusted and radically decentralized civilization" look like?  Those are all traits antithetical to civilization.  If you have a society that meets those criteria, it sounds very much like you have a tribal society, rather than a civilization.  Concentration (especially into cities) defines civilization; if it's radically decentralized, then it can't be civilization.  And tribal societies can be fairly complex things themselves.

But social complexity is a function of energy, and we're at the end of the agricultural age.  In the short term, soil exhaustion makes agriculture impossible over most of the globe without fossil fuel subsidies or inputs of some kind; in the long term, global climate change is ending the Holocene interglacial and the general climate that made agriculture feasible.  If we're going to exist at some level above that of the stone age, where is the food going to come from, since we can't farm?  Where will the metals come from, since they've all been mined?  Our civilization hasn't left the resources behind to allow for the rise of a next civilization.  Perhaps a rare pocket here or there might have the right constellation of factors, but even then, they'll be geographically limited, without anywhere to expand into, so they'll collapse rather quickly.

And why should any of this be at all surprising?  Civilization is an aberration; why should we expect it to be aything other than a flash in the pan?

Evolution does not favor complexity; it favors diversity, and complexity follows.  See Stephen Gould's &lt;em&gt;Full House&lt;/em&gt;; we've been through this argument several times on this site, including in previous theses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would a &#8220;highly dispersed, more adjusted and radically decentralized civilization&#8221; look like?  Those are all traits antithetical to civilization.  If you have a society that meets those criteria, it sounds very much like you have a tribal society, rather than a civilization.  Concentration (especially into cities) defines civilization; if it&#8217;s radically decentralized, then it can&#8217;t be civilization.  And tribal societies can be fairly complex things themselves.</p>
<p>But social complexity is a function of energy, and we&#8217;re at the end of the agricultural age.  In the short term, soil exhaustion makes agriculture impossible over most of the globe without fossil fuel subsidies or inputs of some kind; in the long term, global climate change is ending the Holocene interglacial and the general climate that made agriculture feasible.  If we&#8217;re going to exist at some level above that of the stone age, where is the food going to come from, since we can&#8217;t farm?  Where will the metals come from, since they&#8217;ve all been mined?  Our civilization hasn&#8217;t left the resources behind to allow for the rise of a next civilization.  Perhaps a rare pocket here or there might have the right constellation of factors, but even then, they&#8217;ll be geographically limited, without anywhere to expand into, so they&#8217;ll collapse rather quickly.</p>
<p>And why should any of this be at all surprising?  Civilization is an aberration; why should we expect it to be aything other than a flash in the pan?</p>
<p>Evolution does not favor complexity; it favors diversity, and complexity follows.  See Stephen Gould&#8217;s <em>Full House</em>; we&#8217;ve been through this argument several times on this site, including in previous theses.</p>
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		<title>By: llourenc@hotmail.com</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-146396</link>
		<dc:creator>llourenc@hotmail.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-146396</guid>
		<description>A provocative, intriguing and cogent thesis. I find the reasoning that there are tendencies to decline and that it may not necessarily be a bad thing similar to a line my own thinking. 

Where I find myself with a slightly different view is that I doubt that man will revert to a â€śstone ageâ€? mode of civilisation, if I understood correctly, but I personally think that after a mass die off man will probably revert to a decentralized form, in any cases pre-industrial, but not necessarily stone age. 

I also think it will remain to the survivors to re-learn many basic skills such a local farming and hunting and basic home making and survival techniques that have largely been forgotten. I think that if there is a collapse it wonâ€™t be a simple implosion like the Roman empire or even the Austria Hungarian. Present day world problems do seem much more profound. The issues of population growth, climatic change and depleted resources were never problems faced in such a magnitude simultaneously by another other epoch. 

For that reason alone, the actual turbulence will probably resemble a mass clean up, natures way as it were of correcting imbalances in the global system of life. I also think that civilization will â€śprogressâ€?, in the sense of a continued order will exist out of the disorder, the scientist Ilya Prigogine won the noble prize for his demonstration the order comes from chaotic events, and personally I believe weâ€™ll see some kind of dissipative breakdown leading to a new order, probably a highly dispersed, more adjusted and radically decentralized civilization. 

I also wonder at the idea that the increasing complexity is the problem; I would reframe that in terms of entropy and disorder. If anything, evolution moves in the direction of increasing complexity, not the reverse. If true, a collapse would mark a phase of movement, from where we are now, to a newer form. That implies that all civilizations form one continues whole. It also opens the possibility that â€śafter the collapseâ€? a synthesis will have the chance to form, taking remnant of this civilization and building a new one, hopefully, if man learns from the past, more humane and small. This argument arrives at the same thesis using a different view point, if the underlying issue is mainly a collapse of fixed resources that our civilisation burns off through because of its excessive materialism and way of life, then the fundamental limit is the second lay of thermo-dynamics. Our industrial engine relies on abundant energy and technology will probably not reduce the use of that energy enough to avoid literally burning itself out as oil, gas and coal deplete â€“ even with alternatives the population load and their infinite wants preclude that as a probable remedy. This thermodynamic decay, I speculate is mirrored in most other aspects 

More importantly is that, some kind of remnant civilisation be left to transfer key artificats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A provocative, intriguing and cogent thesis. I find the reasoning that there are tendencies to decline and that it may not necessarily be a bad thing similar to a line my own thinking. </p>
<p>Where I find myself with a slightly different view is that I doubt that man will revert to a â€śstone ageâ€? mode of civilisation, if I understood correctly, but I personally think that after a mass die off man will probably revert to a decentralized form, in any cases pre-industrial, but not necessarily stone age. </p>
<p>I also think it will remain to the survivors to re-learn many basic skills such a local farming and hunting and basic home making and survival techniques that have largely been forgotten. I think that if there is a collapse it wonâ€™t be a simple implosion like the Roman empire or even the Austria Hungarian. Present day world problems do seem much more profound. The issues of population growth, climatic change and depleted resources were never problems faced in such a magnitude simultaneously by another other epoch. </p>
<p>For that reason alone, the actual turbulence will probably resemble a mass clean up, natures way as it were of correcting imbalances in the global system of life. I also think that civilization will â€śprogressâ€?, in the sense of a continued order will exist out of the disorder, the scientist Ilya Prigogine won the noble prize for his demonstration the order comes from chaotic events, and personally I believe weâ€™ll see some kind of dissipative breakdown leading to a new order, probably a highly dispersed, more adjusted and radically decentralized civilization. </p>
<p>I also wonder at the idea that the increasing complexity is the problem; I would reframe that in terms of entropy and disorder. If anything, evolution moves in the direction of increasing complexity, not the reverse. If true, a collapse would mark a phase of movement, from where we are now, to a newer form. That implies that all civilizations form one continues whole. It also opens the possibility that â€śafter the collapseâ€? a synthesis will have the chance to form, taking remnant of this civilization and building a new one, hopefully, if man learns from the past, more humane and small. This argument arrives at the same thesis using a different view point, if the underlying issue is mainly a collapse of fixed resources that our civilisation burns off through because of its excessive materialism and way of life, then the fundamental limit is the second lay of thermo-dynamics. Our industrial engine relies on abundant energy and technology will probably not reduce the use of that energy enough to avoid literally burning itself out as oil, gas and coal deplete â€“ even with alternatives the population load and their infinite wants preclude that as a probable remedy. This thermodynamic decay, I speculate is mirrored in most other aspects </p>
<p>More importantly is that, some kind of remnant civilisation be left to transfer key artificats.</p>
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		<title>By: Pittsburgh Annihilated by Zombies&#8211;Now Who Didn&#8217;t See THAT One Coming? (The Anthropik Network)</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-135817</link>
		<dc:creator>Pittsburgh Annihilated by Zombies&#8211;Now Who Didn&#8217;t See THAT One Coming? (The Anthropik Network)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-135817</guid>
		<description>[...] Sure, we've been expecting the end of civilization around here, but not like this. I never could've predicted this. All the more ironic, living in Pittsburgh of all places. Humanity's last refuge, my ass. This place is a zombie smorgasbord. See, that's the dirty little secret behind all that heavy drinking&#8212;a lot of us have been expecting this ever since our most famed native son, George Romero, sounded the warning, and the wisest have been killing as many of their brain cells as possible ever since, so the zombies would ignore them like lions ignoring a lean gazelle. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Sure, we&#8217;ve been expecting the end of civilization around here, but not like this. I never could&#8217;ve predicted this. All the more ironic, living in Pittsburgh of all places. Humanity&#8217;s last refuge, my ass. This place is a zombie smorgasbord. See, that&#8217;s the dirty little secret behind all that heavy drinking&mdash;a lot of us have been expecting this ever since our most famed native son, George Romero, sounded the warning, and the wisest have been killing as many of their brain cells as possible ever since, so the zombies would ignore them like lions ignoring a lean gazelle. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Godesky</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-84261</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Godesky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-84261</guid>
		<description>What I tried to drive at with the map above and only hit the vicinity of, &lt;a href="http://www.fundforpeace.org/index.php" rel="nofollow"&gt;the Fund for Peace&lt;/a&gt; achieved with far more precision in their &lt;a href="http://www.fundforpeace.org/programs/fsi/fsindex.php" rel="nofollow"&gt;failed states index&lt;/a&gt;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The index is compiled using the Fund for Peace's internationally recognized methodology, the Conflict Assessment System Tool (CAST). It assesses violent internal conflicts and measures the impact of mitigating strategies. In addition to rating indicators of state failure that drive conflict, it offers techniques for assessing the capacities of core state institutions and analyzing trends in state instability.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href="http://anthropik.com/wp-uploads/fsi-map-large.gif" rel="ibox" title="Failed States Index 2006" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;img src="http://anthropik.com/wp-uploads/fsi-map-large.gif" alt="Failed States Index 2006" style="width: 95%;" /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I tried to drive at with the map above and only hit the vicinity of, <a href="http://www.fundforpeace.org/index.php" rel="nofollow">the Fund for Peace</a> achieved with far more precision in their <a href="http://www.fundforpeace.org/programs/fsi/fsindex.php" rel="nofollow">failed states index</a>.</p>
<blockquote><p>The index is compiled using the Fund for Peace&#8217;s internationally recognized methodology, the Conflict Assessment System Tool (CAST). It assesses violent internal conflicts and measures the impact of mitigating strategies. In addition to rating indicators of state failure that drive conflict, it offers techniques for assessing the capacities of core state institutions and analyzing trends in state instability.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://anthropik.com/wp-uploads/fsi-map-large.gif" rel="ibox" title="Failed States Index 2006" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://anthropik.com/wp-uploads/fsi-map-large.gif" alt="Failed States Index 2006" style="width: 95%;" /></a></p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Rondy</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-21507</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Rondy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-21507</guid>
		<description>One interesting symptom of collapse is the willingness of gullible people to believe in salvationist urban legends &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NESARA_conspiracy_theory" rel="nofollow"&gt;such as NESARA,&lt;/a&gt; or the "National Economic Security and Reformation Act".  Read up on this strange Internet phenomenon and see firsthad the social results of the early stages of collapse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One interesting symptom of collapse is the willingness of gullible people to believe in salvationist urban legends <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NESARA_conspiracy_theory" rel="nofollow">such as NESARA,</a> or the &#8220;National Economic Security and Reformation Act&#8221;.  Read up on this strange Internet phenomenon and see firsthad the social results of the early stages of collapse.</p>
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		<title>By: tiffany</title>
		<link>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-19045</link>
		<dc:creator>tiffany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-26-collapse-is-inevitable/#comment-19045</guid>
		<description>Actually, I know "anarchy" can work, first hand because I live it everyday.  Believe it or not, I work at a bar with 10 other people and a "boss" who lets us run the show. He shows up if we call him to deal with a problem but otherwise we make the place run with no one telling us how to do it.  We make our own schedules, write our own paychecks, take draws when we need to,  trade days when we need to...etc etc. yes, we still have to work within the "system" of our employment, but the amount of cooperation it takes to make a go of it with out someone "in charge" is staggering and the ability to handle conflicts without being confrontational is absolutely essential (and something most loudmouth "anarchists" have no grasp on).  It certainly wouldn't work with one dumbshit talking down to everyone else.  I believe in anarchy as a way of life, just not as the intellectual nonsense most of the loudmouths preach.  That's why I said "it" would never work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I know &#8220;anarchy&#8221; can work, first hand because I live it everyday.  Believe it or not, I work at a bar with 10 other people and a &#8220;boss&#8221; who lets us run the show. He shows up if we call him to deal with a problem but otherwise we make the place run with no one telling us how to do it.  We make our own schedules, write our own paychecks, take draws when we need to,  trade days when we need to&#8230;etc etc. yes, we still have to work within the &#8220;system&#8221; of our employment, but the amount of cooperation it takes to make a go of it with out someone &#8220;in charge&#8221; is staggering and the ability to handle conflicts without being confrontational is absolutely essential (and something most loudmouth &#8220;anarchists&#8221; have no grasp on).  It certainly wouldn&#8217;t work with one dumbshit talking down to everyone else.  I believe in anarchy as a way of life, just not as the intellectual nonsense most of the loudmouths preach.  That&#8217;s why I said &#8220;it&#8221; would never work.</p>
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