A Walk and Decisions
by Miranda BelcherI’m one of those people that say, “Well, come on already, Collapse Already!!!” This mostly stems from frustration with civilization and everything that comes with it. Things being futile, greed, intense depression, and of course rent. Knowing that Collapse is coming somehow makes it worse in ways. I know it’s coming, I’m waiting for it, but in the meantime I’m stuck. I feel trapped in this life of school, paying bills, and people that are fake. Hey, I know they can’t really help it. Civilization creates people that act fake. Sad, but true.
Every once in a while I will feel this depression to an extreme degree. Today was one of those days. It is a chilly day, chilly enough for snow to be flying. Yet I decided to walk. I zipped up my lightweight coat, put on the hood, and faced the wind. With no destination in mind, I wandered rather aimlessly. Do you know what I found during my walk? Plants! On my walk I picked dandelions, rather large ones. Not the ones that you find on suburbia’s lawns, but the ones that are allowed to grow without limit. I found wild onions sprouting up in any random spot. I also found mint, which I have been hoping I would find. I know it’s not much, but I smiled a little.
Still, it’s on days like these that I wonder what I’m still doing in school if a degree will not matter in just a few years. Is it simply for vanity’s sake? Something to ponder.
I’m not as smart as I would like to be. I know that. I also know that I haven’t learned a thing at this school that actually makes me feel smarter. Nothing that makes me say, “Oh, I’ll be able to use this information in a few years!” Mostly what I’ve learned is how to be lonely surrounded by people.
I’m just contemplating options for this coming fall and hoping that whatever this feeling is will go away, or at least lessen a bit.
At least I know that however I feel, there is always the woods to walk in to help clear my head, always a tree to sit under and think.
Yes. Hang in there, and keep feeding your brain (and your compost pile).
Comment by Ethan — 5 April 2006 @ 4:20 PM
Continuing to play the game of civilization while knowing it is futile sure is frustrating. However, civilization is still able to reach into every corner of the world and thus very hard to avoid completely. Keep up the walks in the park and the plant gathering. It is very soothing, isn’t it? And it has the added advantage of honing your truly useful skills. Good luck and know that there are others feeling the same thing.
Comment by ChandraShakti — 5 April 2006 @ 5:53 PM
You’re more intelligent than you think. This is a great blog; your insights are interesting and thought provoking. I just finished school a couple years ago after a long and frustrating haul with little support. I’m glad I stuck with it, though there were times I didn’t think I could hang on. Yes most people are fake and self-centered, but you’ll find that everywhere. Try to seek out those who are passionate about life and considerate of others. School’s like lemons, they’re sour and they suck, but you can make them into lots of tasty things like lemonade and lemon cream pie. Try to hang in there!
Comment by Patricia — 5 April 2006 @ 6:50 PM
If you’re that eager for civilization to collapse, why not simply move where you can more easily obtain the lifestyle you seek?
Comment by Anonymous — 5 April 2006 @ 8:04 PM
more easily obtain the lifestyle I seek?
As it stands now, I live in a mountaneous region close to where I eventually want to live out my days.
Right now in life, most things cost money. Money is something I have little of. It’s easy to say, well, why not do this? But until civilization does collapse, it’s still here. Wherever I go, there it will be. When I pay for my land, pay for camping/hunting/fishing permits or even limit myself to 14 consecutive days of camping in an area, there it is, right behind me.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 5 April 2006 @ 8:15 PM
i have the same feelings every time i’m forced to deal with the system. i find myself hoping for the collapse if only just for the change because this world SUCKS. how fun is it to be forced to play a game that is obviously rigged in the house’s favor in EVERY way? forget your christian ideas of hell, we are already there.
Comment by handforged — 5 April 2006 @ 8:50 PM
Try living life as *real* as you can. Tired of the money game? Discover how many ways you can bypass the system! For example: gather wildfoods whenever possible, make them a part of your diet and life now so that when it all comes tumbling down, you’ll be comfortable with them and wise in their usage. As for school, remember that you’re not there for the diploma (that’s just icing on the cake), you’re there for the education. If you’ve chosen your courses well you’ll be studying things that will be useful no matter what happens.
Comment by Jim K. — 5 April 2006 @ 9:54 PM
Out for a walk picking naturals is a great mood enhancer. Try exploring new territories, this always arouses curiousity and will get your mind working. And be sure to take note of the edibles, you may need them soon!
Read about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam-e
Comment by Rick Larson — 5 April 2006 @ 10:16 PM
Oh I love exploring new areas in the wood, but unfortunately I hate exploring them alone.
There, I hit a snag.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 5 April 2006 @ 10:40 PM
Then you need to explore for new tribe members!:-)
Comment by Rick Larson — 5 April 2006 @ 10:50 PM
if all you do is buy veggies and some other esstienal foods at the grocery store, your life will be waaaaaay easier.
the other day i was at the poor man’s gorcery store with a friend. i noticed how many people there were just buying shit loads of junk food, that had to cost them 100s of dollars. well, pretty much everyone was! and all my friend bought was an assortment of veggies, tortillas and OJ, which all came to 25 bucks. and this will last her and her partner a full week! and they make pretty good meals with it, too!
Comment by A — 6 April 2006 @ 12:52 AM
Hey –
I don’t know where you are buying your veggies… but in my part of the world veggies are WAY more expensive than junk food. Hell, most weeks I spend as much as forty - fifty dollars on produce — almost equal to the amount I spend on meats.
Janene
Comment by Janene — 6 April 2006 @ 8:22 AM
I feel the same way some times. I find myself smiling a little everytime I notice that the price of gas has jumped again (a bit of schadenfreude, perhaps?) In the end, unplugging from the system is a complicated - but worthwhile - process. It certainly isn’t fast or easy. Also, I completely agree with A. One of the most basic ways to start unplugging is to stop buying processed crap food. It will make you healthier and is a great bridge to beginning to produce your own food.
- Mike Lorenz
The Blank Page
Comment by Mike Lorenz — 6 April 2006 @ 8:35 AM
Actually, last time I bought junk food would have been a few months ago.
what I buy now is typically juice and fruit which does bring the cost down quite a bit, but it also leaves me rather hungry most of the time. =/
But I do have some meat stock piled in the freezer from buying it in bulk when I moved.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 6 April 2006 @ 8:35 AM
“I don’t know where you are buying your veggies… but in my part of the world veggies are WAY more expensive than junk food. Hell, most weeks I spend as much as forty - fifty dollars on produce — almost equal to the amount I spend on meats.”
i havent done any studies on this yet, but i would bet that veggies (that arent organic) in the long run cost much less than meats or junk food. and even in the short run. it must just be the store i was at… for instance, a bag of chips costeded 3.50, but a bussle(SP?) of cilantro costeded 1.50.
of course, i need to take notes of prices next time im at the grocery store. this is just my semi-ignorant opinion.
Comment by A — 6 April 2006 @ 4:48 PM
Veggies cost way more than junk food. I can live on junk food, budget-wise, but I can barely afford the few veggies I do buy.
Comment by Jason Godesky — 6 April 2006 @ 5:09 PM
Hey –
Ya got that right, Jason. I could feed my whole family raman noodles for a month for the amount I spend on vegies for a week. (I do buy lots of fresh produce, though)
Janene
Comment by Janene — 6 April 2006 @ 5:31 PM
ramen noodles for a month, the typical college student’s life, minus mine and others.
There is the health factor to consider though.
I would prefer fruits and veggies to bags of chips or salty instant soups or noodles and cheese in a box.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 6 April 2006 @ 5:40 PM
This discussion of the cost of veggies vs. the cost of junk brings up an important point which Miranda touched on… Go out and gather your veggies when you can manage to do so. It’s free and it helps you hone your gathering (plant identification) skills for when they become needed.
Comment by ChandraShakti — 6 April 2006 @ 5:43 PM
I live in Croatia where is still plenty of untouched wild nature. I could go straight to the forest and start living like a hunter-gatherer. I also would’nt worry about camping or hunting permits as far as I stay away from hunting zones and a few national monuments. It was always my dream to build a small cabin somewhere in the wilderness and live off the land. There is nothing “technical” or “practical” that hinders me to realise that. However I am also trapped within this system and it is because I hope one day I ‘ll get “repaired” in some ways. I plan to aplly for Dr. Janov’s primal therapy in LA, so that’s why I am continuing a long study of medicine in hope for a decent job and income that would allow me to immigrate and so on. Until I get that done, I ‘ll just continue to live a non-life in civilisation.
Comment by Hermit — 6 April 2006 @ 7:26 PM
Ok Jason, measure the amount of nutrients in a meal of your cheap junk food then do the same with expensive horticulturally grown food. Then tell me your junk food is cheaper. Another thing, in my younger years my Grandfather and I would camp out in the back of the grocery store. We obtained alot of good veggies (well, some had to have the bad spots cut out) for free.
Comment by Rick Larson — 6 April 2006 @ 9:36 PM
It is cheaper. Cheap usually has an inverse relationship with quality–and the same is true here.
Comment by Jason Godesky — 6 April 2006 @ 10:26 PM
Taking a walk is helpful … especially barefoot … shoes separate us from nature in an insidious way.
Comment by Ryvr — 7 April 2006 @ 4:38 AM
I agree with you ryvr.
It explains why i have callouses on my feet as thick as some shoes.
whenever I wear shoes I feel like my feet are trapped.
I also tend to get blisters by wearing any kinds of shoes that aren’t flip flops.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 7 April 2006 @ 11:50 AM
This post demonstrates the major problem I have with the views of people on this site, as much as I might agree about the eventual results of things.
Everyone here seems very self-absorbed and uninterested (and uncompassionate) towards the plight of others. Oh, I’m sorry that you don’t like current society, don’t fit in, and don’t have a lot of financial success. Sure, our current culture sucks dramatically on many many levels.
What about everyone ELSE? I hate to break it to you but if we get a full collapse BILLIONS of people will die. No one in this little tribe seems to care at all. “Well, that’s too bad but they are going to die anyway…” While you are joyfully cheering the apocalypse because it means that you will be able to live the life you dream of (because, of course, you won’t die or be killed in a collapse), you are also cheering for the misery and death of BILLIONS.
That’s what I appreciate about the people over at the World Changing Blog. At least they seem to care about other people besides themselves and aren’t joyfully waiting for the party they can have when the world collapses with a look of gleee in their eyes.
Comment by Al — 7 April 2006 @ 3:36 PM
And this response demonstrates the problem I have with the majority of people. Thankyou for sharing your issues so wonderfully!
As it stands, point out where it says I don’t care?
yes, billions of people will die. Things cannot increase the way they are.
Either we continue to grow and grow and grow without ceasing, which is impossible by the way, or something is going to break.
How do you propose that a very limited amount of people change the world SO much that people will not die?
I wish to hear it.
Go on.
Now, I had a stressful day, I wrote about it.
End of story.
Now go on, continue to attack me.
Because obviously my post had EVERYTHING to do with advocating the death of billions of people.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 7 April 2006 @ 3:42 PM
I can’t speak for anyone else, but Giuli and I agonize over that constantly. I’ve written about that quite a bit. It took me years to come to terms with it. But when it comes right down to it, there’s not a damn thing we can do about it. It’s our ancestors’ fault. That’s cold comfort, but this was all set in stone long before we were born.
So, I do what I can. The sooner collapse happens, and the quicker it happens, the less catastrophic it will be. It’s already been delayed so long that it’s hard to imagine how it could possibly be worse, but it can … it can still be so much worse.
What can I do? Every individual that I can reach, that I can convince to “abandon ship” before it’s too late, is one more person who might make it. Believe me, that reality haunts my every moment–has haunted it for years. Giuli is regularly reduced to tears by it. But we were put into this position by our ancestors thousands of years ago. Damn them for not collapsing in the Bronze Age, when it was just millions! But then, millions, billions? They felt the same way I do now, and back then there really was a way out. Can I blame them so much for taking it? Yes, because in doing so, they damned us to even worse.
Will we do the same to our grandchildren? Fortunately for them, I don’t think we’ll have that option.
But you’re quite wrong if you think it doesn’t affect us. I think Miranda’s anticipation is … well, in poor taste, frankly. But I can understand it. You’re quite, quite wrong if you think it doesn’t weigh heavily on us. I know it weighs on me. But such sadness is paralyzng. You have to find some way to reconcile yourself to that truth, wipe your tears, and find the strength to stand and do something, do what you can, while you still can.
That’s what I’m doing. What are you doing?
Comment by Jason Godesky — 7 April 2006 @ 3:54 PM
No, your post had nothing to do with other people. THAT is the problem. I’ve had this same discussion with others here. It is always about how dissatisfied the author is with the current world and how they can’t wait for it to end so their troubles will be over and the shiny new post-Collapse world will begin.
It always ignores the fact that the birth of that world will involve the pain, suffering, and death of many many people and, likely, you as well. But you don’t care about that, right, because you are only concerned with how trapped you feel.
My suggestion is that you deal with life like an adult. You WORK with others to BUILD a better future. You prepare for the possibility for collapse but you don’t cheer it on or work to see it happen. In fact, you should work to avert it but, of course, that will leave the civilization that reared you, which you hate, in place and that wouldn’t be as fun as a post-Collapse scenario where you are free to eat wild greens or hunt your fellow humans, right?
Comment by Al — 7 April 2006 @ 3:54 PM
I’d like to see a single reference to anything I’ve ever written on this site, when I wax poetic about the post-collapse possibilities, without also agonizing over how painful the road to it will be. Just one will do.
Miranda has done this, I know. I have most certainly not, so if you’re going to talk about “others here,” I’d like to see an example.
Comment by Jason Godesky — 7 April 2006 @ 3:57 PM
Fair enough, Jason. That’s a much better response than what you gave me the last time I asked you about this.
What am I doing? I’m making sure, over time, that I have the skills needed to get by. I disagree with some of your reasoning and I actually think that many of the cities will be better off in the longterm than trying to “lone wolf” it in the countryside with a small group. I don’t think that the level of collapse will destroy all governance and I do not think civilization (as in city living) will be destroyed. I do think things could be quite bad for a long time with many many deaths.
Having applicable skills is important. Having a network of reliable people is important as well.
I also believe in working to create a society and culture that isn’t so geared towards growth. Since I don’t think things will go all Mad Max on us, I think that is probably the best thing to focus on before and after any collapse.
I’m a Buddhist studying to become a Buddhist Priest in a Japanese tradition. At the end of the day, if I have a dry place to sleep, food to eat, and space to do things (and maybe some good), I’ll survive. People to talk to is nice as well.
As a Buddhist, I can’t ignore the fact that a lot of people ignore the toll of human suffering while cheering for an apocalypse. You don’t seem to be from what you’ve just said, which is good in my opinion.
Nothing is inevitible though.
Comment by Al — 7 April 2006 @ 4:02 PM
Jason, you and I had a discussion in an entry several months ago where you effectively said that while you were aware that many people would die, that it wasn’t anything that you could do anything about and that you wouldn’t be one of them.
I’ll leave it to you to find the entry.
Comment by Al — 7 April 2006 @ 4:04 PM
I would like to ask a question of all of you now
How do you think you can assume what I am like ALL THE TIME by one post?
YES, I get frustrated from time to time with the fact that civilization is STILL HERE!
Do I always? No. Jason, you know me in person. Do I always?
NO.
I feel for people. I can feel for the families of people that die because I know how it feels when people I care about die. That will never change the fact that they will die.
Ultimately, everybody does.
And I feel for them, but I cannot care for them all on a personal level.
So you caught me on a down day. On a day when you are depressed, tell me, is that how you are all the time?
If you think that for one second the post above as anything to do with my not caring about anybody else, go back to grade school and learn how to read.
No, I didn’t mention anybody else in the post. Why?
Because it didn’t have to do with anybody else, it had to do with me and the day I had and the decisions I was making.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 7 April 2006 @ 4:13 PM
the fact is that humans aren’t the greatest worry for me (and im sure it’s the same with most people here). i sure do get sad thinking about all the problems civilization has created for everyone (like the idea that we should import food from far away countries…), and pissed about what a collapse may entail (death!). but, it’s like a dam falling…it kills all the vegetation in the short run, but in the long run, health is restored.
i want to help others, form a “tribe.” but all and all, when it is said that the world will be better after a collapse, it is meant to say that life will THRIVE, IE. Non-human life and possibly human life. that chaos (chaos isn’t bad, by the way! read Hakim Bay, for more info) will thrive (because a rational Eden or any kind of “eden” is just bullshit, no one lives in balance of nature, only dead people do. the world is always revovling, forever and ever. there are times of climax and there are times of decadence (that’s when you move somewhere else!)), instead of some civilized order.
i seriously could give a shit if i die, but im going to try and survive and teach others.. and im taking those steps now, not only because some mythical collapse may come, but because it’s NEEDED and it’s a great experience.
bring it on.
Comment by Scott — 7 April 2006 @ 4:14 PM
OK … and where’s the glee in that?
I’m an unabashed partisan for the human species, but not because we’re the greatest or best–only because I’m one of them. It’s “my team.” I worry about the rest of the earth primarily insofar as it affects “my team”–that means caring about it a great deal, because it affects us a great deal. But there’s no doubt that my first loyalty always lies with Homo sapiens sapiens.
The comfort in collapse is that the only thing worse than billions dying is trillions dying–or the extinction of the entire species.
Comment by Jason Godesky — 7 April 2006 @ 4:24 PM
im in full agreement.
Comment by Scott — 7 April 2006 @ 4:26 PM
then i contradict myself.
Comment by Scott — 7 April 2006 @ 4:27 PM
Scott,
Telling me to read Hakim Bey is amusing since I run the longest running Hakim Bey site on the net at http://www.hermetic.com/bey/.
Comment by Al — 7 April 2006 @ 4:42 PM
Hey Miranda,
Take a couple of deep breaths before responding. Getting angry at me isn’t going to change my opinion of what you wrote. You can feel free to dismiss what I said, that’s your option. It doesn’t change my opinion of it and your current responses only reinforce my opinion that it is all rather self-focused.
Comment by Al — 7 April 2006 @ 4:45 PM
You may think of me as self-focused, but if you insist on having an opinion of me be based on a few paragraphs, then that is your decision.
As it stands, it’s not you I’m angry at.
My post was about school and my decisions regarding that.
Realize that before you continue to attack me.
But realize that attacking doesn’t bother me, for the more you do it, the less I care about you.
Carry on.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 7 April 2006 @ 4:50 PM
That’s you? Oh man, I love that site … I always thought it was Bey himself.
Ultimately, yes, it is. My goal for this site is to provide our “source code” for creating a tribe–an open source approach. Take what you agree with, leave the rest. It is self-focused, because we’re dealing with how we’re going to survive. We’re doing it out in the open, rather than behind closed doors, precisely because we do care about the consequences of collapse, and we’re hoping that our efforts can help save a few more that might not otherwise have made it.
But ultimately, some things are inevitable–or, at the very least, there are points of no return. Once you let go of the apple, it’s too late to worry about it falling. This end wasn’t always inevitable, but once we started down this path–thousands of years before any of us were even born–it’s too late to avert it. This is the consequence of an action long, long ago. These things have consequences; that cannot be changed. Before we started down this path was the time to worry about how to avert this end; we’re 10,000 years too late to worry about that now.
Billions will die. There’s nothing we can do about that now; nothing can stop it now. Even if something could, it would do so only by making it worse, like it happened in the Bronze Age. So, we do what we can. You can’t save billions, but you can save yourself, and the people you care about–and maybe that’s enough of an example to save a few more. I don’t think any of us can do anything more than that.
Comment by Jason Godesky — 7 April 2006 @ 4:56 PM
“I’m one of those people that say, “Well, come on already, Collapse Already!!!”
I caution you to be careful about what you ask for, because you may just get it.
Personally, I wouldn’t mind seeing the world enter power descent for a number of reasons. The most important of these are my life-long aversion to hierarchy and the mindless consumption pushed on us by globalism.
I like to think that Peak Oil really kicking in will serve as the catalyst that makes humanity switch to a steady state economic model from the current grow-like-a-cancer one.
In the meantime, there are plenty of things to enjoy about life as it presently is. I live in what you would call an up-scale hippie community. It’s beautiful and safe and life couldn’t get any better in our present pre-collapse circumstances. (I’m about to go out for my 3 o’clock latte break at a local coffee house.) I have a car I love but drive minimally. (I have put 3000 miles on it since last July 12th.) If my house catches on fire, the fire engines will be here in 5 minutes. When I order books online they are here in 2 days. The Internet allows me to communicate daily with people who share my interest in relocalization. Modern medicine allows me to live a life as close to normal as is possible for someone in my circumstances.
The list of things to be grateful for just goes on and on.
Pardon me for saying this, but your post does make you sound like a mopey teen.
It’s not all about you.
Comment by Peter — 7 April 2006 @ 4:58 PM
“Telling me to read Hakim Bey is amusing since I run the longest running Hakim Bey site on the net at http://www.hermetic.com/bey/.”
Hot dang! Small world.
Put me down as another fan.
Comment by Peter — 7 April 2006 @ 5:01 PM
This is where we part, Miranda. I’m not attacking you and it is unfortunate that any criticism, even pointed criticism, is perceived by you as such.
Comment by Al — 7 April 2006 @ 5:31 PM
“Telling me to read Hakim Bey is amusing since I run the longest running Hakim Bey site on the net at http://www.hermetic.com/bey/.”
haha. wow that’s crazy. ive just recently gotten into his TAZ book. it’s awesome.
Comment by Scott — 7 April 2006 @ 5:35 PM
Wow, how can anyone disparage the idea that billions will die when billion upon billions have already? This is a process that has been written in stone.
It’s nice to care, but don’t care to much or you will be a victum.
Comment by Rick Larson — 7 April 2006 @ 9:47 PM
I have to say, I agree with you Rick.
Like I said, I can feel for the people that will suffer, but at the same time when I meet people I try to tell them what’s what. This is the state of civilization right now, in a few years it will be worse until it hits a breaking point.
It’s up to them to decide what to do with that information.
I will certainly care, but you know what I’m not going to do?
Im not going to stay behind in the hopes of saving people I’ve already warned. Why?
Because, yes, I am selfish. I do care about my own life. Staying behind is death. Period.
I don’t really appreciate when people that put me down and say things such as, well Miranda is the only one here that feels this way, obviously, and what you are saying is absolutely correct about her, or you are a cold hearted bitch because you are so self-absorbed that you can’t feel anything for anybody else.
Judging me by a stressful day shows narrowmindedness.
I plan on surviving and to do that, it means caring about myself and the people that I plan on surviving with first.
If i can enlighten people with this information along the way, fantastic. Always happy when that happens.
But it’s not up to me to make them listen.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 7 April 2006 @ 10:55 PM
Wow. I can cut the pointless ad hominems with a knife.
Miranda has never said that she doesn’t care about all those people dying. And quite frankly, I would know if she had.
Let me take this: I don’t care about all those people. Niether do you. You care about six billion “people” not six billion “individuals.” My first duty is to me and mine. The rest of the human species be damned. I’m not wasting my energy protecting them. I spend mine protecting me and mine. We’ll see whose genes survive. No amount of us can stop 6 billion plus people from dying. My choice is to drive myself to distractions over civilized sensibilities or say “ok, how do I survive?” Do I feel sad about them? Yes. And I’ll immortalize them as the horible cost of trying to over power the gods. Do I care about them? No, how could I? I don’t know them. Does this make me self-centered? Sure does, it also makes me honest and forthright.
Now, everyone, stop attacking Miranda over something she didn’t say. She’s looking foward to the life we’ll have after tha collapse. So am I. I think we all are. In fact, it’s all that gets me through the day most of the time. Miranda hasn’t said or claimed any of the things you’ve accused her of saying. But now I have. Attack me. If I out live you, I win. Good luck.
Comment by Benjamin Shender — 7 April 2006 @ 11:01 PM
And Peter, I never said it was all about me.
How many times do I have to say it before you people listen, I was explaining why I was making decisions.
You can describe me as a mopey teen if you will, but it’s amazing to me how many people said to me “I know exactly how you feel, I feel the same way, just never really said it out loud” and then I get flamed essentially for saying it.
Big deal.
complain about it if you will, it’s not going to make me take back anything I said.
And for those of you, Al, that believe you weren’t attacking me, read your first response.
Cheerfully rejoicing in the death of billions?
that’s not an attack on what I wrote, that’s an attack against me.
Thank you for parting ways with me.
I greatly appreciate it.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 7 April 2006 @ 11:12 PM
I call it like I see it. I’m sorry that looking in the mirror is painful, Miranda.
Let me know when you grow up and want to make things better in the world instead of just cheering its collapse for your own selfish gain.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 12:11 AM
Wow.
And that wasn’t attacking me?
for someone who says it’s time to part ways, you certainly are finding it difficult.
As I’ve said, you have trouble listening I’m assuming, the post in question had to do with decisions I am making, not about “cheering on the collapse”.
Now, “call it as you see it” but it would appear you need a new prescription.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 12:19 AM
No, I wasn’t attacking you before.
Now, on the other hand, I see you as a petulant child who needs to grow up and quit feeling like the world needs to die because she can’t handle the world as it is.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 1:11 AM
How old are you, Miranda? How much life experience did you get before you condemned the world to death and decided it was better to look forward to a world full of death and destruction?
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 1:12 AM
You keep putting words into my mouth despite my repeated explainations of what my post was about. Now, if you are one of those people that believes that depression is just selfishness, then you are clearly misinformed and have never been truly depressed. I’ll say it one last time, but them I am done. This post was the work of a stressful day. The intent was simply to help form a decision I have to make. Basically, a vent. At least I don’t keep what I’m feeling deep inside me to the point of pain. Not to rejoice in glee of coming collapse. I am devastated by the amount of people whose lives will be lost. I feel for them, yet I can not care for each and every one of them on an individual level. Still, this does not stop me from trying to get as many people as i possibly can to listen.
Now, Peter, yourself and even Jason have taken me completely the wrong way. That’s fine, yet you continue to not see what I’m saying, continue to believe that I wish pain on the world simply for myself. Hear me, you don’t know me and simply cannot make an accurate judgment of who I am based on a stressful day. Read what I’m saying rather than insisting that you are right about who I am, what I feel.
If you insist on continuing to ignore what I’m saying, then I will insist on ignoring you.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 1:22 AM
Well, unfortunately, when you “vent” on a blog in public, you give people a right to comment. It wasn’t a private e-mail with your friends. It was a public post on a blog.
I do think depression is about selfishness much of the time and I have been treated for clinical depression in the past (and recovered through learning new skills in dealing with it). It is a wallowing in selfish and self-importance as often as it is a despair about the world and one’s role in it. Life doesn’t have any meaning but that which we give it. If we choose to think that the world is better off dead, that is the meaning (or lack of meaning) that we give to our life and those of others.
You can say all you want that you don’t wish pain on anyone but WHEN YOU ACTIVELY LOOK FORWARD TO THE DEATH OF THE WORLD, YOU WISH PAIN ON EVERYONE. You can say it is going to happen. Heck, my wife will die someday but that doesn’t mean it is wrong to wish for her death in spite of that. The fact that the world may or will collapse is not an excuse to happily look forward to that day unless you think the consequences for other people are positive. Since the creation of your happy, post-collapse world involves death and suffering on a scale never before seen in the history of the human race, I don’t think you can excuse wishing for it with your justifications.
Make the world a better place and NOT just for you or your friends. Give it a try instead of giving up or actually helping the world collapse by convincing others to give up too.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 1:29 AM
One: Never did I mention ANYWHERE that the world will be happier post-collapse. do I think that ultimately the world will be better, yes. But that is certainly not because I wish harm on people.
Two: I too am clinically depressed, something I am working on. But most of the time I am content with life, content with the knowledge that I getting, but you know what? Sometimes you regress. I’m human, just like you. Depression is not about selfishness, and interestingly enough, only in civilization does it occur. Huh! amazing!
Three: it’s clear to me that you saw the first line of a post and went from there, ignoring all other points beyond it. I’m aware that’s a public arena, however, if you insist on responding in your narrowminded way, and yes it is, dont skim, actually read.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 1:36 AM
And for the record, it’s not the death of the world. It’s the death of a very sick way of life for HUMANS.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 1:37 AM
You know, after the whole wedding industry fiasco, I promised myself I wasn’t going to get into any more arguments around here. But I just can’t let this one lie.
To all of those in this thread going on about the glories of collapse and taunting to “bring ‘em on,” you need to get your heads out of your asses. We’re not talking about the fucking Rapture in which everyone who’s been good will suddenly be delivered to heavenly bliss. We’re talking about a process that will be excruciatingly painful. And even though no one may have actually said the exact words that they don’t care about the billions of people out there who would suffer in the event of a collapse, the callous disregard for human life exhibited by a statement like, “Well, come on already, collapse already,” speaks volumes.
This isn’t something that you wish for. It’s something that you merely prepare for in the knowledge that it can’t be stopped. And wishing for it is just sick.
Ben, you say that it’s impossible to care about people you don’t know. Well, I say that merely demonstrates a rather disgusting lack of compassion. Are you really so shallow in your ability to care for others that your empathy is limited solely to those people you personally know? Are you really that far gone?
And don’t even try using that sort of evolutionary double talk as a justification. Evolution is no substitute for ethics. And any person who would use it as such is a monster. That’s something that was recognized even in Darwin’s time.
So yeah, you may “win” in terms of genetic survival. But I will have won as a human being.
Comment by Mike Godesky — 8 April 2006 @ 1:42 AM
Yeah, tell that to the somewhere between one and six billion mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, and brothers that might die. I’m sure that they would agree with your assesment that it is not the death of the world (only their own deaths but that is inconsequential, it seems).
I understand, actually, that you didn’t actually think ahead and say, hey, I’m going to post something happy or joyful about the death of most of the people in the world. I don’t think you intentionally feel that way. I do feel that the viewpoint is extremely short-sighted and, ultimately, selfish though.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 1:46 AM
I’m done.
There comes a time when when the benefits just don’t outweight the cost.
It’s impossible to care for someone on an individual level when there are billions of people on earth.
Would you cry for a random person who died oversees that you did not know personally the same way you would cry for a person you knew your whole life?
I’m doubting it.
It’s not about cruelness, it’s about not knowing everyone in the world on a personal level.
yes, people will die.
Guess what?
Both Ben and myself are trying trying trying trying trying to get people we know to listen so maybe just maybe they wont die in the collapse.
guess what?
Most people don’t listen.
So maybe I’m acting like some “angsty teen” because I had a bad day and shared why it suddenly became good.
Wow, she is so full of angst! She goes into the woods and gathers edible stuff to feel better. Angst Agnst Agnst.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 1:48 AM
And yes, I’m a petty person for rising to bait here but I do wish that people would, more often than they do, pause and think about the implications in human suffering of much of this.
Some here say they have, good. Prepare for it and do your best but, I still say, actively work to avert. Don’t just sit on the sidelines and either stoicly watch it happen or (worse) cheer it on.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 1:49 AM
Everyone is selfish.
Bottom-line.
Get over it.
To harp on it isn’t solving a damn thing.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 1:49 AM
Which people? It clearly isn’t the six billion that you share the planet with because you clearly DO think they will die and that’s ok because you can’t stop it.
Which people do you actually care about? Only those that you know personally.
I’ll tell you write now, while I may not have an emotional connection to six billion people (the mind doesn’t work that way), I surely do care about them. I care even more about every person that I meet because then they have a name and a face. If I haven’t met them, they aren’t non-entities because I’m not a selfish solipsist who only thinks my immediate world is real (or matters). THAT is the selfishness that I am talking about.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 1:52 AM
So if everyone killed people, Miranda, that would mean it is OK to do so? If you ethical justification for being selfish the fact that others are too?
That isn’t ethics. Ethics aren’t a matter of justifying behavior by pointing to the bad behavior of others to excuse your own.
Everyone in the world could decide that raping women is fine but it wouldn’t make it right, would it?
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 1:54 AM
Well guess what?
I care about them too, as I’ve said. Just not on a personal level.
And what I mean, for your information, about people we know, is people we meet.
Is it possible to tell 6 billion people?
Not a chance.
but every new person I meet I try to tell them things. I try to make them listen rather than just hear and shrug their shoulders.
In the meantime, people that I tell, tell other people.
Just happened recently.
A friend of mine had no place to live, so she she slept on my bed and I slept on my floor. The entire time she was here I talked to her about this stuff. She’s to the point now that she wants to survive, and do you know what else?
She wants other people to survive, and she in turn told them.
Now, if that is selfishness, then fine. I’ll continue to act as such.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 1:56 AM
Wow, killing people and selfishness are so much alike!
I am selfish because I want to survive.
And I want my loved ones to survive.
Funny thing, once I stop be selfish, once humans stop being “selfish”, we stop surviving.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 1:59 AM
I don’t share your ethics, and hence, are unmoved by them.
6 billion people must die. This is not an option. And I’m not in a position to tell the gods “this is wrong.”
You say you aren’t selfish. This means that you are lying, deceiving yourself, or evolutionarily unstable. Selfishness is missunderstood, read my article about it for more information.
Comment by Benjamin Shender — 8 April 2006 @ 2:01 AM
Question for people: Is this focus on post-apocalypse survival a coping mechanism for people who cannot be successful, financially or otherwise, in the current world?
Is this like the Live Action Role Players (LARPers) who become super into their LARP sub-culture because they can be important and successfulthere even though they still live with their parents or can’t manage to build up resources by working a career (at least for a while)?
Do people that our culture views as successful get into this or is it only the people that can’t find a way to fit in anyway?
Now, people will think I pressupose an answer but I don’t. I can only guess at how successful anyone is here but I don’t get the sense that, say, a successful engineer pulling in $100K a year or a successful lawyer on his way up in a firm is going to participate in this.
Of course, some will say that those people have already bought into the system and will just deny what is going to happen but that also pressuposes that these people are less intelligent and less educated than the people here or on similar sites. I work with a lot of engineers and, let me tell you, they aren’t stupid or ignorant.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 2:02 AM
Hey, Ayn Rand just joined us!
Next you’ll give me the “Greed is good” speech, right?
Justify your lack of ethics however you want. Pol Pot and others managed to do so as well but that didn’t make them right.
Sure, I’m selfish. The difference is that I don’t see that as an excuse to continue to be so but as something to be strived against. You say “I’m selfish and so is everyone else” and then you think that excuses it.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 2:05 AM
I don’t lack ethics silly boy. I have different ethics than you.
No, I don’t think that excuses it. I think that no excuse is required.
As far as being unsuccessful, I turned down a 170 grand a year job out of high school. I’m simply not motivated by money, your lack of imagination quite aside.
Comment by Benjamin Shender — 8 April 2006 @ 2:40 AM
I guess you want be buying your compound…er…enclave before the collapse then, eh? No collecting guns and expensive foodstocks either… I don’t suppose you need to pay anyone to learn your outdoors and survival skils, right?
All of that would take filthy lucre. You’re too busy doing…something else because have money is meaningless.
Please, feel free to elucidate the basis of your ethics and show to me that you are not another Randroid who thinks that selfishness is the hallmark of an advanced individual.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 2:44 AM
And, no, my ability to type without errors after midnight is as nonexistant as it appears.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 2:46 AM
Ummm, why would I want to have an enclave or a compound? Just begging to be the first targeted. I didn’t say money is meaningless. Money means time spent in slavery and can be used in trade for the products of slave labor or in exchange for slave labor. The amount being equal to the supposed worth of your labor. I didn’t call it meaningless, I said it didn’t motivate me, at least not beyond a means to an end.
My ethics are based on the idea that having a community and supporting that community are the greatest things a person can strive for. Selfish always extends to “family.” It’s the way humans work, and it does work because it leads to continuation of your genome.
Comment by Benjamin Shender — 8 April 2006 @ 2:57 AM
What responsibilities do you have to people outside your community? None? Can you hurt them? Can you rape them? Can you kill them?
What responsibilities do you have to fellow humans?
Feel free to show that you are a selfish sociopath to anyone who isn’t your immediate friend.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 3:00 AM
Reponsibilities? None. Could I? Maybe. Would it mean that their communities would kill me, almost certainly. Besides, all that sounds like a waste of energy to me. Why should I do any of that when I don’t care what they’re doing?
Feel free to show that you have no interest in understanding, but rather intend to repeat yourself ad infinitum.
Comment by Benjamin Shender — 8 April 2006 @ 3:03 AM
Well, Ben, you’re out of the running for the human race.
If and when the collapse comes, if you wander into my area looking for food, I’ll just shoot you and dismember the corpse. By your logic, this is both ethical and normal behavior since I don’t know you. Why shouldn’t I? Besides, then I can take your stuf, maybe any women with you, and they’ll belong to me if I can keep them.
Leaving aside satirical scenarios, did you miss out on the last couple of thousand years of human civilization completely and decide that only caring about your only family was an adequate response instead of simply a starting point? I’d point to political philosophy and concepts around the brotherhood of humanity current since the Enlightenment but you probably wouldn’t care. Heck, I can point to Chinese writings from 2,000 years ago that say your way is actively evil but you probably don’t care either.
Just don’t cross my path if things go south. With your beliefs, you’d be like a viper in the midst of normal people trying to maintain community and working together. You’d probably justify anything in the name of self-interest if it didn’t directly harm you or your family, right?
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 3:08 AM
In other words, you are morally bankrupt and anyone on this site that works with you should really consider what you’ve said here before trusting you and turning their back if there wasn’t a legal system to keep you in check.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 3:09 AM
Funny thing about the collapse, just about everyone will be fair game, if only because everyone will be so frantic with starvation because they wouldn’t know an edible wild plant if it had a sign on it. Humans will suddenly become food for people that otherwise wouldn’t think of it.
So essentially ANYONE who crosses your path is fair game.
I doubt you’ll differentiate between the people.
though, I suppose if you still believe yourself to be lacking the selfishness, you could always just let them eat you instead so they’ll survive instead of you.
Hehe, Oh Ben, funny thing is you are about the only person I do trust.
Guess Im crazy, though that’s not a big secret.
Comment by Miranda Belcher — 8 April 2006 @ 3:22 AM
The really sad thing is that you two probably actually believe this evil drivel.
Let’s repeat it, for the sake of understanding: just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should do something or that it is ethical to do it.
This important principle seems lost on you two.
What stops you from beginning your rampage now like two good Natrual Born Killers? Fear of Johnny Law or lack of the urge to kill at this point for some other reason?
Seriously, what is holding you two back from acting out your ethics that being selfish is virtuous?
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 3:27 AM
Hmmm, no. If I wonder into your area you’ll give me food and shelter. Remember? Your ethics. But, like I said, what do I gain from killing you?
Oh no, I’ve been watching civilization very closely. Apparently you haven’t been, and seem to be ignoring the majority of human history anyway. I fail to see your point. Unless you are claiming to be ethnocentric?
I’ll be sleeping the sound sleep of the peaceful.
:lol:, you called me “morally bankrupt,” that’s rich.
Comment by Benjamin Shender — 8 April 2006 @ 3:27 AM
Sorry, Ben, I don’t shelter animals. I shelter humans. You’ve already opted out of the human race, you’re just biding your time.
I’ve got a gun and I grew up using firearms. I won’t like it but I will protect my family from would-be predators. My ethics do allow for that. Aggression against other people has a penalty, especially if the world becomes more dangerous. That isn’t the same as thinking it is every man (and genetic relations) for himself and everyone else is meat.
It’s depressing that people like you believe themselves to be virtuous but I did supppose that people like you existed. I just expected them to be ignorant, not willful, in it.
Comment by Al — 8 April 2006 @ 3:31 AM
I think the thing you missed is that people tend to only spend large amounts of energy to do things when they expect to get something back.
Why are you still argueing from your ethical perspective? I don’t understand or share your ethics. Can you explain them to me?
What holds us back is physical reality. Quite frankly I trust physical limitations over something as flimsy as “morality.” Your honored civilizations have ethics that say “be nice.” And no physical limitation against it. Interestingly enough civilization is responsible for the most anti-social of behaviors: genocide.
Yes, I’ll take my ethics that have not caused the extinction or destruction of a single speices or culture over your’s that’s so big on words and small on deeds.
I never said that selfishness is virtuous.
Comment by Benjamin Shender — 8 April 2006 @ 3:33 AM
Humans are animals.
You amuse me. I think you’ll taste good with carrots. But you make poor and repetious conversation. Would you like to converse about the topic or simply insult me for the purpose of feeling superior?
Comment by Benjamin Shender — 8 April 2006 @ 3:34 AM