On Violence

by Jason Godesky

After fighting, everything else in your life got the volume turned down.

— Fight Club

Primitivism, in the popular imagination, is a subspecies of terrorism. Your average American can tell you that a primitivist is not quite the same as Abu Musab al Zarqawi or Khalid Sheik Muhammed—perhaps they’re using terrorism for a different end—but in their mind, in the same way that all of Islam can be summed up in the figure of Usamah bin Ladin, all primitivists are cut in the mold of Theodore Kaczynski—better known as “the Unabomber,” a brilliant, deranged terrorist responsible for the deaths of three innocent people, and the wounding of 29 others. This perception is no more accurate for primitivism than it is for Muslims, but we do ourselves little favor with violent rhetoric.

And yet, who can deny the importance of the present moment? At risk is not just the wealth of some legal fiction called a “country,” nor even some ephemeral abstraction like “freedom,” but the very real threat of the extinction of the human species in the sixth mass extinction in the history of the world. Our civilization’s impact on the planet is comparable to an enormous meteor smashing into the planet and kicking up enough dust to blot out the sun for weeks—as happened with the last mass extinction, 65 million years ago. If ever there was a cause worth fighting for, would it not be this? What cause could we possibly concieve of, that does not immediately pale in comparison to this? This is not just a struggle for the survival of the human species, but very possibly of multicellular life on Earth.

Part of our civilization’s twisted view of the world is its inability to come to terms with violence in a healthy way. There is an inherent violence to animal life—a fact that philosophers have often commented upon. The chopstick has its origins in Confuscius’ notice that stabbing food with a knife is a violent act, and his desire to move away from that. Buddhist desire to do no harm finds its apex in some monks who were shoes like short stilts, to minimize the possibility of stepping on a bug. Ethical vegetarians often eschew the eating of meat because they do not want to kill anything; instead, they kill vegetables. Whenever and wherever we try to eliminate the harm we do, we find ourselves running into the essentially violent nature of animal life: we live because others die.

Shamanism is a hunter’s religion. The forager life does not afford the luxury of such self-deceit: it requires the predatory to make his peace with his animal nature, including the inherent, inescapable fact of violence. No animal lives, except by the deaths of others. The mediation of life and death in a universe carefully balanced between them is at the heart of everything the shaman does. At the heart of agricultural philosophy, however, is a desire to escape this system: to have life, and never death; growth, and never decay; health, and never sickness. In the end, it is a fool’s dream doomed to failure, but the longer it goes on, the more death, decay, and sickness is needed to balance out the folly. Normally, the forager’s life balances these in small, manageable portions. When civilization collapses, the arrears accumulated over long centuries of delay come crashing down with a terrible vengeance.

Because of this, civilization cannot tolerate ambiguity. We demonize our Tricksters, rather than countenance their ambivalence. The world must be divided between black and white, good and evil—with good defined in ever more narrow terms, and no deviation from it tolerated.

The foundation of civilization, the cornerstone of the state, is an idea first formalized by Max Weber in a 1918 speech, Politik als Beruf (Politics as a Vocation), when he said:

“Every state is founded on force,” said Trotsky at Brest-Litovsk. That is indeed right. If no social institutions existed which knew the use of violence, then the concept of “state” would be eliminated, and a condition would emerge that could be designated as “anarchy,” in the specific sense of this word. Of course, force is certainly not the normal or the only means of the state–nobody says that–but force is a means specific to the state. Today the relation between the state and violence is an especially intimate one. In the past, the most varied institutions–beginning with the sib–have known the use of physical force as quite normal. Today, however, we have to say that a state is a human community that (successfully) claims the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force within a given territory. Note that “territory” is one of the characteristics of the state. Specifically, at the present time, the right to use physical force is ascribed to other institutions or to individuals only to the extent to which the state permits it. The state is considered the sole source of the “right” to use violence. Hence, “politics” for us means striving to share power or striving to influence the distribution of power, either among states or among groups within a state.

Fundamental to the existence of the state is the myth that peace requires the members of a society to relinquish their natural born right as animals to use violence, and instead invest that right with the state. The idea is that by allowing the state this monopoly of force, it may control and meter the use of force, resulting in less violence overall.

If I kill someone, it is “murder”—a killing that is considered unjustified. If a policeman or a soldier kills someone, it is usually justified. The criteria for justified and unjustified violence are left for the state to decide, and part of what makes it a state is that the only legitimate uses of violence are by, and for, the state, as with the military, or a para-military group, like the police. Under pressure after especially egregious abuses of this power, the state may make some uses of force that were previously justified, unjustified, and may institute various review procedures for police, soldiers, or other state-approved killers, but this is ultimately an elaboration on the state’s prerogative to determine arbitrarily what constitutes justified and unjustified violence.

We have been trained to think of violence as “wrong” since birth, because it is essential for the state’s continued existence that we accept the myth of its legitimacy, and the founding premise of that so-called legitimacy, the monopoly of force. Only by turning violence into an “evil” thing in the same way we demonize the Trickster can we willingly shed ourselves of such a natural function of animal life. Only then can we believe in the monopoly of force—and only then are we willing to accept its dominance over us, and the mythology of “legitimacy,” whereby our natural born freedom is relegated to “rights” for the state to arbitrarily grant or deny, seems not only reasonable, but the way things should be. Without accepting first that violence is “wrong,” none of the systems of control and domination follow. Yet, we can hardly find any reason why it should be so. Even if we do accept the perverse notion that violence is “wrong,” rather than simply an ambivalent and ever-present feature of animal life, is there any evidence that the state has succeeded in reducing violence through its monopoly of force?

The answer to that question depends entirely on what you use as your baseline. As Lawrence Keeley shows in War Before Civilization, while the absolute numbers of violent fatalities and woundings have become astronomically larger since the advent of the state, per capita, they have gone down. This might be seen as proof that the monopoly of force delivers on its promise, were it not for the fact that Keeley’s sole example of a forager society with such violence comes from the Inuit.

Another objection to Keeley’s work is its anecdotal nature. A total of 201 references are made to 46 cultures. Of these, 6 New Guinea cultures take up 34 of those—roughly 16% of the total. The most oft-cited culture in the book is the Mae Enga. This New Guinea group are pastoralists—and therefore, would be classified as agriculturalists in this paper. However, Keeley cites them as a “primitive” group. A further 31 citations (15%) comes from various Plains Indians who, according to Peter Farb (Farb, 1968), did not exist prior to European contact. Therefore, at least 31%—nearly one third—of the citations which Keeley refers to do not, in fact, refer to the behaviors of actual “primitive” groups.

Keeley focuses on the prevalence of war among non-agriculture societies as a sign of their bellicosity, but Eckhardt rightly points out that, even so, the shorter, less often wars of civilizations produce far more destruction than all of the primitive wars, both absolutely and proportionally. (Eckhardt, W. 1992) These two studies by Keeley and Eckhardt, Keeley relying mainly on anecdotal and Eckhardt mainly on statistical and mathematical evidence, counterbalance each other and together produce the conclusion that “primitive warfare” is constant, but of a very low intensity. All the causes of primitive war can be expressed as asserting the group’s rights, as a deterrent from annihilation. (Godesky, 2000; PDF)

Foragers were not peaceful “Noble Savages.” Forager groups constantly tested their boundaries with one another in skirmishes. In extremely marginal ecologies, like the Arctic, foragers are even extremely violent, with long-lasting blood feuds. But, as Raymond Kelly discusses in Warless Societies & the Origins of War, marginal societies tend not to have the resources to go to war, and affluent societies (like most foragers) have no reason to go to war. So, like agriculture (see thesis #10), warfare develops not from strict scarcity or abundance, but the nerve-wracking, extreme fluctuations between them, with periods of scarcity priming a population’s fears, and following abundance providing them the resources to act on those fears.

When compared to horticulturalists, pre-state farmers, and even the most marginal foragers, the promise of the monopoly of force seems fulfilled. But if we take as our baseline the only sensible baseline for comparison—the mode of existence which dominates our evolution until only the most recent past—then we find that there is far more violence, astronomically more, both absolutely and per capita, under the state than there was before the state. The justification of the state—the monopoly of violence—reduces violence only when you are already faced with a society based primarily on cultivation. For foragers, it can almost be seen as the very introduction of violence, or at least, violence of a type and scale previously unknown.

Any intelligible discussion of violence and primitivism must begin with those two points:

  1. Violence is an ambivalent, inherent feature of animal life.
  2. Our aversion to violence is a trained response, instilled by an oppressive, hierarchical system in order to make us obedient.

From the foregoing, it may be surprising that I do not believe that violence is justifiable as a primitivist strategy. It is important to have clear, good reasons for that, apart from the fallacious reasoning based on the monopoly of force or any of the ethical or theological devices concieved by apologists of domination systems to keep us enthralled. Violence, as noted above, is an ambivalent part of animal life that every animal must make its peace with. There are times when violence is a useful, and even a laudable strategy—such may be the single most widespread theme in all of Western literature. The question of violence and primitivism, then, is certainly not an ethical one. As mentioned above, no cause in the history of the world has ever provided greater ethical justification than this. The question is whether it makes sense as a strategy.

There is, of course, its utter lack of feasibility. We may understand that the monopoly of force is a pernicious myth, but the immense firepower of the United States government is anything but imaginary. It is not respect for their imaginary and unethical “laws” that keeps me a law-abiding citizen, but fear of their guns. That is a healthy response. The use of violence is utterly, utterly doomed to failure. Primitivists sometimes evidence a paranoid fear of government surveillance through oppressive, quasi-legal programs like THERMCON, COINTELPRO, ECHELON, or even more secret NSA programs. Waco, Ruby Ridge and other, similar events wherein supposed innocents were victimized by the government are pointed to as examples of what the government might one day do to your own peaceful eco-village. These examples are rarely used in good faith. The government programs mentioned, while clandestine, suspicious, and worthy of our indignation, are not nearly as omniscient as we so often fear. As with more recent programs collecting information from phone companies on private conversations, collecting data is a far easier task than usefully analyzing or using it. Neither were the people at Waco and Ruby Ridge blameless innocents; while emphatically not the villains painted in popular media, they were also up to the very typical, pseudo-legal activities one would expect to elicit the attention of law enforcement. As much as personal freedoms have been curtailed by Western governments in recent decades under conservative regimes, at this point in time it remains true that if you do not do anything illegal (or anything that seems illegal), the government will have no interest in you. Rhizome is invisible to hierarchy; building an eco-village, learning primitive skills, and living in the woods are all things that thousands of people do. They are not dangerous in any conventional sense that the government is capable of appreciating. The government does not care.

If, in the unforeseeable future, that changes—if the United States continues its current trajectory for a decade or more to become truly fascist, or the world turns on to a global conflict of hierarchy vs. rhizome—then rhizome also offers the only viable defense strategy against hierarchy. Jeff Vail writes on this topic regularly, most completely in “Defending Pala: Rhizome as a Mode of Military Operations,” and “Rhizome Network Defense Strategies.”

The history of warfare is a history of hierarchy. Rhizome polities, as they have existed in a lesser approximation of fully rhizome form, have never been able to repel the advance of hierarchy. As a result, warfare has been an activity entered into exclusively by hierarchy, against either rhizome or against another hierarchy. It has been a constant evolutionary struggle, with alternating innovations in tactics or politics, offense or defense leading to a perpetual war among human polities instigated by the innovator. Rhizome cannot “make war� in the classical sense, because it has no capacity for offensive warfare—the kind of military operations that I will outline here are structurally limited to defensive and reactionary operations (even if they may use offensive tactics to defensive ends). This is because rhizome is structurally incapable of exerting control beyond itself—the pattern of rhizome can spread, but it is fundamentally incapable of controlling another entity. For this reason, rhizome has no motivation to instigate war—it can only respond to aggression by hierarchy. Therefore, if one accepts that it is possible to develop the theory of rhizome military operations to the extent that it cannot be defeated by hierarchy, then rhizome war equals an end to war, as hierarchy will not instigate a war that it does not think it can win.1

Ironically, Vail notes that the promise that the monopoly of force could never fulfill—an end to war—may ultimately be fulfilled by rhizome, which is extremely effective at defending itself, but largely incapable of mounting an offensive attack. The Rhizome Army of the Appalachian Confederation is intended to provide such rhizome defense in the event that it is needed—an eventuality that I, personally, do not foresee as terribly likely.

The threat that has turned the primitivist into a kind of terrorist in the civilized imagination does not come from primitivists who want to simply be left alone and are willing to defend their way of life, though. These are dismissed as harmless cranks. Rather, it comes from terrorists like Theodore Kaczynski, “the Unabomber,” who killed three people and wounded 29 others in a perverse publicity campaign for his manifesto.

Kaczynski’s fear was of the potential damage that technology could do the earth and human welfare. To stop that from happening, he mailed bombs. Capt. John Hauser, a Berkeley graduate student, had applied for the astronaut program, but his dream was dashed just a few days before he learned of his acceptance when the Unabomber stole four of his fingers and one of his eyes. His first lethal victim was a California computer store owner, killed by a nail- and splinter-loaded bomb lying in his parking lot in 1985. The second killing was an advertising executive, Thomas J. Mosse. Kaczynski later explained in a letter that advertising manipulates people’s attitudes—so it’s OK to kill anyone in marketing. The last of Kaczynski’s murders, in 1995, was the president of the California Forestry Association, Gilbert B. Murray, in 1995.

John Zerzan’s first notoriety came out of the Kaczynski trial, when the media picked him out as a “confidant” of the Unabomber. Zerzan’s opinions on Kaczynski seem mixed. On the one hand, he has had the sense to point out that Kaczynski’s tactics were unjustified:

…the mailing of explosive devices intended for the agents who are engineering the present catastrophe is too random. Children, mail carriers, and others could easily be killed. Even if one granted the legitimacy of striking at the high-tech horror show by terrorizing its indispensable architects, collateral harm is not justifiable…2

However, he has also written:

The concept of justice should not be overlooked in considering the Unabomber phenomenon. In fact, except for his targets, when have the many little Eichmanns who are preparing the Brave New World ever been called to account?…. Is it unethical to try to stop those whose contributions are bringing an unprecedented assault on life?3

And again, two years later:

Enter the Unabomber and a new line is being drawn. This time the bohemian schiz-fluxers, Green yuppies, hobbyist anarcho-journalists, condescending organizers of the poor, hip nihilo-aesthetes and all the other “anarchists” who thought their pretentious pastimes would go on unchallenged indefinitely - well, it’s time to pick which side you’re on. It may be that here also is a Rubicon from which there will be no turning back.4

What did Kaczynski accomplish? Three dead, innocent people—yes, innocent, people without malice, who simply tried to do the same as any of us. They had no dreams of world domination; they were merely trying to get by. The problem we face is not individual sins, but a system. Is it justifiable to target the individual people inside that system, simply because it’s harder to target the system itself? By day, I am employed as a software engineer. My brother has a business degree. Are we Zerzan’s “little Eichmanns”? Is it justifiable, or laudable, if we die in a hail of shrapnel, packaged in a box, sent from a man in the middle of the woods? If we do, in what way have we come even one step closer to the collapse of civilizaton? There is no mistake or ambiguity here. Kaczynski did nothing to hamper civilization—he just killed innocent people, and wounded many more.

We must remember that a violent campaign against civilization is not a war on some vague idea: it would claim human lives, just like you or I. Every war has casualties—that is precisely what makes violence ambivalent. “Collateral damage” is a terrible word. It is always measured in lost, innocent lives. Even the most justified war ever waged, the Allied invasion of Nazi Germany, took a heavy toll in “collateral damage” and the deaths of innocent bystanders. As we’ve already discussed, the crisis of civilization is a far more dangerous threat than the Nazis ever were. The Nazis were but a small subset of civilization; civilization does not threaten one “race,” but the whole species of Homo sapiens, and if we take any regard for other life on the planet, we must also note that it has already claimed a toll that puts Hitler in his proper place as a historical footnote. The difference between ethical and unethical conduct in war is not decided by whether or not collateral damage is incurred, but as a measure of how carefully such innocent suffering is minimized. Kaczynski’s campaign did nothing to minimize such “collateral damage,” and gained nothing. There is nothing defensible in his terror campaign. But what of a hypothetical scenario, aimed towards similar ends, that did avoid collateral damage, and was actually effective?

The Earth Liberation Front, better known as ELF, was classified as the top domestic terrorist threat by the FBI in March, 2001, six months before Muslim extremists killed 3,000 people in New York and Washington, DC. By contrast, to date, no human has ever been killed, or even injured, due to any ELF action. Instead, ELF engages in “ecotage”—the destruction of property that threatens the environment. Usually, this means burning SUV’s or other acts of vandalism and arson. ELF actions are supposed to adhere to three principles:

  1. To inflict maximum economic damage on those profiting from the destruction and exploitation of the natural environment.
  2. To reveal and educate the public about the atrocities committed against the earth and all species that populate it.
  3. To take all necessary precautions against harming any animal—human and nonhuman.

To date, while adherence to the third principle has been perhaps laudable (though their current clean record on this score may have as much to do with dumb luck as any planning involved), the first has been ineffective, and the second has been laughable. Far from revealing or educating, ELF actions have typically produced exactly the opposite effect, shutting down any and all environmentalist campaigns for months at a time, as apologies are made and distances reassured. In the same fashion, Al Gore’s Earth in the Balance was dismissed by many with superficial comparisons to the Unabomber Manifesto.

On the surface, ELF’s attacks might seem like they cause damage to civilization, but ultimately, the buildings ELF burns down are simply rebuilt, resulting in even more logging and economic activity. The targets ELF has chosen are small and ultimately meaningless. These acts have proven, time and again, very effective at galvanizing anti-environmentalist sentiment and leading to government crack-downs on environmentalist organizations, but have not resulted in any positive environmental effects. Overall, ELF has achieved far more for its supposed adversaries than it ever has for its supposed allies.

Let us assume the “best case scenario” for the violence strategy, something far beyond the puerile, adolescent pranks pulled off by groups like ELF, or the senseless murders committed by the Unabomber. Let us assume a scenario like that imagined by noted security analyst John Robb in “Green Guerrillas,” wherein eco-terrorists leverage systempunkts to shut down large swaths of complex networks with a single stroke. Robb notes:

Eco-terrorism isn’t new. It is, however, typically ineffective. This report points to another potential scenario. If eco-activists adopt global guerrilla tactics, they could coerce a rapid move to clean energy alternatives. Small but extremely effective (high ROI) attacks on the energy corridors leading to target regions, would quickly increase the costs of conventional energy such that clean power alternatives would become extremely attractive. This would be dictated by a direct economic comparison (costs) as well as indirect factors such as reliability of delivery. This systems sabotage tax would induce a tipping point in energy market equilibria towards green alternatives if it is extended over a long period (longer than one season) and is of a sufficient level.

For primitivists, this is insufficient. A transition to alternative fuels may even be a nightmare scenario that could potentially give civilization a “second wind,” as with the re-emergence of Western civilization from near collapse at the end of the Bronze Age (seePeak Wood“), allowing civilization a long enough lifespan to truly threaten the survival of all multicellular life on the planet.

Herein lies the great danger of violent action that must be considered, a theme we’ve already seen in the ramifications of the eco-terrorism of ELF or the Unabomber. As fragile as civilization is, it is not so fragile that it is susceptible to fall from terrorist attacks. The propoganda stating otherwise from the current U.S. government is mere fear-mongering to enlist our support for other agendas. What such attacks can accomplish, however, is to galvanize the civilized response. Like the Bush administration’s own “incompetence”, eco-terrorism blurs perception. Persuaded by purely materialist conceptions of civilization, such eco-terrorists are convinced that once a certain threshold of destruction is reached, civilization collapses. The complexity model of collapse instead posits civilization as an investment. Collapse is akin to a run on a bad stock, as everyone tries to get out first. Primitivist use of violence, like an incompetent politician, obfuscates the long-term trend. The downturn is attributed to the momentary losses of a well-timed attack. A good investor doesn’t pull out at the slightest downturn, because he knows that fluctuation is normal: what’s important is the long-term growth of the stock. It is only when the long-term prospect of the stock begins to go down that a good investor pulls out. The complexity model tells us that collapse occurs when people begin to understand that further investment in complexity will continue to yield diminishing returns, and they opt instead for a lower level of complexity that provides greater return. Material factors ultimately bring people to this point, but collapse itself is always a matter of understanding the pattern.

Well-planned violence may not even require human casualties, and it could result in significant infrastructure damage by leveraging systempunkts. But even in the very best scenario, it has two opposing effects: at the same time that it may make complexity more costly (thus providing greater infrastructural reason for people to question their investments in complexity), it also provides an excuse for a downturn, and obfuscates the “big picture.” It leads people to believe that the downturn is artificial and temporary. Without violent action, the inherently losing proposition of complexity would only continue to become more and more self-evident. In the very best case, I think it would be generous to think that these effects even balance each other to “break even.” More realistically, even in the best case, the psychological effect will be far greater than the infrastructural one, and the net effect of violence will be to increase civilization’s longevity, and the damage it is capable of doing.

This, of course, says nothing of the fact that violence is very much hierarchy’s “game.” Our best hope is to redefine the struggle in our own terms, to put it on “our turf.” Violence is their “turf.” “Beating them at their own game” is an impossible task—and besides the aid it will give to civilization’s longevity, eco-terrorism also marks us as targets that government agencies take notice of. This is precisely the type of action that most certainly will garner government surveillance and violent retaliation, and with good reason. In fact, the violent actions of one primitivist or primitivist group could easily hamper even the majority of nonviolent primitivists. Note how much time has been spent on this subject among primitivists, how much time has been spent disavowing the Unabomber and ELF, and how much fear, uncertainty and doubt yet remains on the part of primitivists afraid that they will be swept up in actions aimed at the likes of Kaczynski, or in retaliation for the latest ELF action. Beyond the aid it gives to civilization, primitivist violence also hurts other primitivists.

This is why we must not pursue violence. The “primitivist leadership” of Zerzan, Jensen and others have provided, at best, mixed signals on this front. Violence for self-defense may become necessary in the future, but an offensive campaign to bring down civilization is a doomed strategy even in its best case—to say nothing of whether or not we can justify the deaths of billions as acceptable “collateral damage.” Violence has a place in healthy animal life, and the repression of violence in civilized society has made it hyper-violent. Trying to answer that violence with violence of our own is doomed to failure. For the time being, violence is something we must emphatically deny. There is no room for ambiguity on this matter. This is not a matter of violence being “wrong,” or submitting to the state’s delusions of grandeur with the monopoly of force. This is about the proper use of violence, the realities of the situation we are in, and the fact that in this system, violence does far more harm than good. If we cannot reclaim primitivism from those who would use it as an excuse for mere terrorism, and if we our “leaders” cannot take a firm stance on this issue—in short, if we can’t take primitivism back from the bankrupt terms of conflict that civilization has given us for all our problems—then primitivism will die. And with it, very likely, our last, best hope for survival.

This is a war that we cannot afford to lose. Are we going to lose it for so petty a reason, that we’re so civilized that we can’t think of a more effective way of waging it than blowing things up?

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  1. […] It’s become a very heated debate. On 11 August 2002, ELF fire-bombed the U.S. Forest Service’s forestry sciences lab near Buckaloons. Fitting ELF’s record, no one was harmed (the bombing took place late at night), but it caused $700,000 in property damage. ELF took responsibility in an email which included a pronouncement that it may begin straying from its usual principles: “While innocent life will never be harmed in any action we undertake, where it is necessary, we will no longer hesitate to pick up the gun to implement justice.” The Aug. 11 attack has only exacerbated the situation. Jim Kleissler, co-founder of the Clarion-based Allegheny Defense Project and one of the most effective critics of logging in the ANF since the mid-1990s, angered timber industry representatives in a Sept. 5 interview with the Times-Observer. […]

    Pingback by The Battle for Our Home (The Anthropik Network) — 8 November 2006 @ 4:16 PM

  2. […] It’s hard to tell if the fault lies with Prentiss, or Dr. Carlson, but to that Ishmael “has violent themes” is the kind of ridiculous statement one could make only by assiduously avoiding any actual reading of Ishmael. There are violent elements in primitivism—I’ve written against them before—but Daniel Quinn’s work is essentially the rallying point of the non-violent wing of primitivism. Hueng-Sui’s Christian upbringing introduced him to far more violent themes than he would find in Quinn. And where is the rest of the evidence for this? Where are the videos with Hueng-Sui talking about Takers or Leavers? Where does he mention the Thunderbolt? The Law of Life? Any of it at all, except the name? […]

    Pingback by “Ax Ishmael” (The Anthropik Network) — 19 April 2007 @ 11:04 AM


Comments

  1. People always believe that the downturn is artificial and temporary. This is intimately connected to the reason you’re always saying that primitivists won’t have to worry about thousands of city dwellers coming out to the forests to find food.

    And have you read Endgame? Jensen isn’t sending any mixed messages - he fully supports the use of violence to take down civilization. His is a materialist approach to the issue of collapse, and he doesn’t really address the issue of social investment.

    Comment by scruff — 7 June 2006 @ 3:24 PM

  2. Hey –

    Beautiful Jason.

    This may end up being one of your most important pieces… at least within the ‘community’

    Janene

    Comment by Janene — 7 June 2006 @ 4:06 PM

  3. i cant really comprehend violent action against the dominant culture at this time - as it seems one needs a landbase for it to be justified. so we need to find our landbase’s first, and then see if defending them is a necessity - and i have little doubt that it will be. learning skills that will atleast make you strong when civilization is taking violent action againt YOU seems quite necessary. i think this is what jensen is getting at - that we need to identify with our landbase and see that violence killing it as offensive action against ourselves

    Comment by L — 7 June 2006 @ 5:01 PM

  4. On the ethics of violence - you’ve really only shown that violence is necessary. And even this depends heavily on how you define “violence.” Most definitions of violence take intent into consideration, so acts such as killing for food would not be included. But even assuming that violence is necessary, that is not necessarily the same as whether it is right or wrong.

    Suppose somebody puts a gun to your head and tells you to kill five people if you want to live. In this case, killing those people is necessary for life. But does that make it “morally ambivalent?”

    Comment by Mike Godesky — 7 June 2006 @ 10:03 PM

  5. I don’t know of any definition of violence that takes intent into consideration–whether or not violence is justified usually takes intent into consideration, but whether or not it’s justified is a totally different question than whether or not it’s taken place.

    Killing for food is most certainly a violent act, but we consider it justified because it’s a necessary, everyday occurence. We weight the lives of humans more than animals, because we can communicate with humans. Notice that we also weight the lives of pets more heavily, insofar as we develop communication with them. So our intuitive sense of morality does not simply value all lives equally: lives closer to us and lives we can relate to are lives we value more. The life of an animal we neither know nor care about is one we value far more cheaply than our own. The classic “kill someone or I’ll kill you” conundrum differs from hunting because in this conundrum, these are lives we can relate to, as opposed to the deer you can’t communicate with. Shamanism achieves a greater moral honesty, I think; by communicating with deer (whether supernaturally or only in the shaman’s imagination–the reality of the situation is largely irrelevant), they are open to the fact that it really is quite morally ambivalent.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 7 June 2006 @ 10:29 PM

  6. Janene is “right”. This is one the most important pieces you’ve written.

    While I may argue as to how efective violence may or may not be, you are absolutely correct that it is a fool’s errand.

    Comment by Rory — 7 June 2006 @ 11:06 PM

  7. Almost every definition of violence I’ve ever seen includes some condition about intent. Usually this is intent to cause harm or injury. So your example of stabbing food with a knife doesn’t count as violence because nothing is being harmed (unless, of course, your food happens to be alive at the time). Likewise, surgery is a physically abusive act, but it isn’t considered “violence” because the intent is not to cause injury.

    But there are a lot of differing opinions on what precisely constitutes “violence.” So I’ll let you have that one, just for the sake of argument. But that still doesn’t get you to “violence isn’t wrong.” Just that “violence is necessary.”

    Comment by Mike Godesky — 7 June 2006 @ 11:06 PM

  8. Defining violence is a bit of a cottage industry with no clear end in sight, so for the moment, let’s use this classic one from the National Committee for Injury Prevention and Control:

    aggressive human behavior involving the use of physical, psychological or emotional force with the intent to cause harm to oneself or others

    Under this, eating is most certainly a violent act. It involves the use of physical force–whether notching an arrow or pulling a carrot out of the ground–with the intent to cause harm to another. What this harm is intended to accomplish is quite beside the point. Do I intend any less harm, simply because that harm feeds me? By that logic, World War II was completely non-violent, since the harm intended towards Nazi soldiers was only in the interest of liberating Europe. So obviously, the proximate intent to cause harm is far more relevant here than whatever our ultimate goal may be.

    To speak to the question of violence’s moral status, we need to come back again to what morality is. If it’s the means by which we institute necessary social boundaries and codes of behavior, then obviously nothing necessary for daily survival can be immoral. Or, to put it in another way, any hypothetical standard of universal morality must then be a spectrum on which we constantly exist. If an immoral act is necessary for daily survival, then that represents a threshold of morality on that spectrum that we can never surpass–we can be this moral, and no more (because to be moral would mean ceasing a necessary activity for daily existence, in which case we would be dead). This being the case, any such necessary activity cannot be the most immoral act such a creature can commit, since it caps the uppermost limit of that creature’s moral capacity. So, while such an act may be “immoral” on a universal scale, on any relevant moral scale to that creature, it must be at least morally amibvalent, since it is an activity that creature is required to partake in to sustain its existence, so the creature’s morality will always be strictly equal to or less than the morality of that act.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 8 June 2006 @ 12:45 AM

  9. Rhizome is like a social immune system.

    Comment by JCamasto — 8 June 2006 @ 12:55 AM

  10. I just want to say a thing about non-violence.
    Since some people say they are non violent
    but they use extremely violent sentences.
    For me I think that’s violence as well, and even worse then physical violence like fighting, because it hurts me much deeper.

    Or no, I wouldn’t say physical violence is less then psychological violence.
    Just that, in this time and place, psychological violence is used a lot more then physical violence. And somehow, you are punished by authorities far worse if you use little physical violence then if you use very damaging psycholical violence. Probably it’s because you can clearly see the result of a punch on someones head, but you can’t really see the result of an insult which hurt someone really deep in his soul.

    I’m just saying this since I’m not very good at psychological violence,
    but much better at physical violence.
    And I think it’s just not fair that physical violence is seen as far worse then psychological violence. Often it’s not even seen as violence.
    ———–

    Other thing:
    Isn’t violence necessary (psychological or physical) to influence people?
    Like if all the people need to understand the current problems with our lifestyle and system.
    Then first their/our current idea of the world has to be smashed to pieces, to then be rebuilt to a more sane idea of how they/we need to live in this world.

    I’d say it is violent to have your ideas of the world being smashed, it harms you because you don’t know anymore what you have to do…
    But if you then find another way to live, the harm was only shortlived in comparison to the benefits in the long run. So it was good to have those first ideas smashed.

    It’s like disease helps us to find a good way of life. People change to more healthy and organic diets, etc etc with which they are often very pleased after getting used to the change. And without this violent disease the change would have never taken place. Disease can be argued to be violence from nature,.. or god?

    ————–
    Well, those were just some of my thoughts about violence.

    Comment by gunnix — 8 June 2006 @ 7:04 AM

  11. Under this, eating is most certainly a violent act. It involves the use of physical force–whether notching an arrow or pulling a carrot out of the ground–with the intent to cause harm to another.

    Well, no. Eating is not a violent act. Hunting is. And that depends on who all you include under the heading of “others.” Other what? Other living things? Other human beings? And your example of pulling a carrot out of the ground is much more dubious. For one, the intent isn’t there. Nobody’s thinking, “I’m gonna kick this carrot’s ass” when they take it out of the ground. And furthermore, there’s not much evidence to suggest that plants can feel pain. So to the best of anyone’s knowledge, pulling a carrot isn’t actually causing any harm.

    To speak to the question of violence’s moral status, we need to come back again to what morality is. If it’s the means by which we institute necessary social boundaries and codes of behavior, then obviously nothing necessary for daily survival can be immoral.

    That seems a little simplistic, though, to suggest that morality is the same as necessity. So to go back to the example I gave earlier, by this theory it would be perfectly acceptable to shoot five people if it meant saving yourself.

    @ gunnix - I think you may be stretching the definition of violence a little bit. Not everything that’s painful is necessarily “violent.”

    Comment by Mike Godesky — 8 June 2006 @ 9:30 AM

  12. Hunting is.

    Are we including pulling up a carrot under the heading of “hunting”?

    And that depends on who all you include under the heading of “others.” Other what? Other living things? Other human beings?

    I imagine they meant “other humans,” but that’s a bit narrow, isn’t it? We talk about violence against animals regularly. I would say “others” is “any other living thing.”

    For one, the intent isn’t there. Nobody’s thinking, “I’m gonna kick this carrot’s ass” when they take it out of the ground.

    And you’re probably not thinking “Ooh, that deer’s gunna git it!” nearly so much as, “Mmmm, venison,” but your intent is to cause harm–to end the organism’s life–as a prelude to consuming it. There’s a big difference between “conscious thought” and “intent.”

    And furthermore, there’s not much evidence to suggest that plants can feel pain. So to the best of anyone’s knowledge, pulling a carrot isn’t actually causing any harm.

    Whether or not plants can feel pain aside (cutting off the response pre-emptively, the “Backster effect” is not scientific at all), you are ending its life. If I slit your throat and you die painlessly, have I done you harm? Pain is not the only metric of harm. I would say that killing an organism is unambiguously doing it harm.

    That seems a little simplistic, though, to suggest that morality is the same as necessity.

    That’s not my claim at all. Rather, I think we all agree that there’s something of a spectrum of morality. Some things are very virtuous, some things are innocuous, some things are naughty, and some things are heinous. All of our actions are somewhere on this scale. All human behavior represents a subset of this scale. Any animal must kill things in order to live, so wherever that act lies on the cosmic moral scale, every animal hits that point on a regular basis, correct? So, for any animal, its subset on the cosmic moral scale can never go any higher than the least moral necessity, since even the most moral member of that group must engage in that activity on a regular basis. Maybe that means that all animal life is damend to live forever on the low end of the cosmic scale. That’s irrelevant, because the cosmic scale doesn’t matter for us: the only part of the cosmic scale that’s relevant to us is the past we exist in, in the same way that Abell 2218 is very interesting and even far more important on an objective, cosmic scale, but really is almost completely irrelevant in human affairs because it takes 3 billion years just for its light to reach us.

    So, the human scale of what’s moral and what’s not is always going to be maxed out at the least moral, necessary action that takes place everyday. Maybe that makes the whole Kingdom Animalia evil, but that also means that on the relevant scale of human morality, violence can never be at the bottom of our moral range, since it also demarcates the most moral we can ever be.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 8 June 2006 @ 10:08 AM

  13. So, the human scale of what’s moral and what’s not is always going to be maxed out at the least moral, necessary action that takes place everyday. Maybe that makes the whole Kingdom Animalia evil, but that also means that on the relevant scale of human morality, violence can never be at the bottom of our moral range, since it also demarcates the most moral we can ever be.

    But you can’t just put all violence in the same box like that either. Killing an animal because you need food is very different from killing an innocent person just to watch him die. Or from killing a person for putting pennies in his ears.

    You see? It’s all about context.

    Comment by Mike Godesky — 8 June 2006 @ 12:29 PM

  14. Obviously, and that’s something I got to later in the article, you notice. Violence can be justified or unjustified. So, in itself, it’s morally ambiguous.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 8 June 2006 @ 1:35 PM

  15. “Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!” G.I. Joe

    GI Joe, violence geared to stopping the perceived destructive enemy “Cobra”.
    Heroes vs. Villains.

    Justification of violence is pervasive in the entertainment media, as well is in the dogmatic statements of politicies, govt officials. Context is argued, but sometimes it just boils down to perspectivism.

    Comment by Bubba — 8 June 2006 @ 1:54 PM

  16. “There are times when violence is a useful, and even a laudable strategy—such may be the single most widespread theme in all of Western literature.”

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 8 June 2006 @ 2:00 PM

  17. Carrots are not the only things we eat. If an apple falls from a tree and you eat it and throw away the seeds, is that violence? Apple is not a living thing, only its seeds can grow and you didn’t harm the seeds.

    Rhizome is like a social immune system.

    Immune systems are parts of complex organisms. A human has a very complex immune system, but a bacterium doesn’t have one at all.
    The civilization is the most complex social organism, and it has the most complex social immune system. And it is not the rhizome. A forager tribe or even a collection of forager tribes is much less complex. They will neither need nor afford a complex social immune system.

    Comment by _Gi — 8 June 2006 @ 2:24 PM

  18. “Culture carries no privelage to exist. Cultures do not have value simply because they are. Some cultures, the world is better off without.” Terry Goodkind, soul of the fire.

    “Ordinary men who had never before acted violently, could, in the right circumstances, be incited to great brutality. With the way they veiwed mankind as sinful, wretched, and evil, it was only a msall step more to be actually doing evil. T.G. Faith of the fallen.

    Comment by Bubba — 8 June 2006 @ 2:49 PM

  19. at this point, we need to ask ourselves, What Would Tyler Durden Do?

    http://www.wwtdd.com

    Comment by Rory — 9 June 2006 @ 11:28 AM

  20. I’ve been told ever since I can remember about, neighbouring to my Oz home, Papua New Guinean’s, as so called “war-like” people en bloc. That adjectival description, “war-like”, is contaminated to the degree that it is exaggeration, by the known bigoted ‘othering’ racialism of the people who always emphatically told me this about PNG en bloc, and in turn by the absurd en bloc catch-all for what is in fact 800+ different language-peoples & cultures in PNG.

    Since I learn’t from first hand evidence from various friends who are European-Australians (different ones from those refered to above) and Indigenous people of Australia, Papua New Guinea, Pacific Islands including New Zealand, I have established a specific habit. The habit is that I have refined the term war to be:
    -that ritualised or ceremonial so called “war” or “fighting” is not war at all but basically role-play (if it doesn’t get out of hand), as I learn’t with many Oz Indigenous peoples,
    -and that, as I was brought up with, PNG so called “war-like” people having violent skirmishes, are not being war-like, while clearly they’re known to have been violent, murdering or individually atrocious at times, this is still skirmish violence, murder or atrocity not war violence, murder or atrocity, rather like youth bad boys in some European-lifestyle city neighbourhoods. (even if African-American for example the lifestyle is European becuase of past slavery’s conditioning and cultural genocide in the America. But I don’t mean like organised so called ‘white’ or ‘hispanic’ or ‘black’ mafia-like gangs of older men.) Meaning that the PNG examples that I’ve learned of have long-term harm or losses that are miniscule, compared to the harm & losses of the many Wars of many agricultural or heirarchical or stratified peoples of Indo-European language family derivation who have been war-like.

    Though loss of one life is no less bad and is not diminished, by comparing it to the loss thousands or hundreds-of-thousands of people.

    These “world-war” thousands of deaths and harm are multiples of bad-ness not the standards by which all war or war-like-ness be judged.

    What I’m saying is, just because my European people have been so extremely war-mongering and made so much death over much of their history, does not normalise what is their extreme of wars, and it does not make PNG skirmishes out to be harmless.

    This as I understand it, is what you Jason Godesky are here sharing an understanding of in your words, different from my words.

    Best wishes to all

    Jase

    Comment by Jase from Oz — 10 June 2006 @ 6:37 AM

  21. Intersting thoughts, Jason. You wrote that “Primitivism,in the popular imgaination, is a subspecies of terrorism.” However, I would argue that primitivism does not exist in the popular imagination…in fact, it barely registers in the imagination of a tiny, tiny fringe of the broader culture. I have yet to meet anyone outside of the far left or right who can even define, let alone critique “anarcho-primitivism”. I have never personally seen it compared it to the popular boogeyman white America has made of radical Islam.

    Now, if you mention the “Unabomber” to Joe or Jane America, sure, they will cry out “terrorist”, and rightfully so, as that’s exactly what Ted was. But equating him with primitivism per se is ridiculous…sort of like labeling any popular theorist or writer as a “leader” of primitivism as you do near the end of your essay. Zerzan does not define who I am or what I believe. Nor does Jensen. Or Quinn. Or Tucker. Or anyone else waving a flag and calling out “charge”. I answer to myself, those I hold dear and the Earth (not necessarily in that order).

    You also wrote “The problem we face is not individual sins, but a system.” Yet a “system” is ultimately nothing more than a collective of “individual sins” operating through the agency of cultural sanction. Addressing such a faceless construct while attempting to bypass the individuals who comprise it is to ensure that said system continues to thrive.

    I compltely agree with you that running around spouting feel good “Rambo” like rhetoric about the coming primitivist revolution where a handful of privledged white folks rise up to violently enforce a return to the stone age upon a population whose majority would most likely rather die than live in such a manner is ridiculous and counter-productive…but much of your essay struck me as equally rooted in the very morals and philosophy of the culture you seek to exit.

    Comment by dreaming mountain — 11 June 2006 @ 11:57 AM

  22. Now, if you mention the “Unabomber” to Joe or Jane America, sure, they will cry out “terrorist”, and rightfully so, as that’s exactly what Ted was.

    They’ll also know the ideology he was pushing, and though they might not be able to apply the label “primitivist” to it, they do know what it is. Describe what you believe, and the typical response is, “Oh, like the Unabomber–so you’re a terrorist.” At least, that’s what I very often get.

    Zerzan does not define who I am or what I believe. Nor does Jensen. Or Quinn. Or Tucker.

    Nor I, and yet I cannot even count how many times I’ve been dismissed because of something Zerzan argued. Like it or not, we are always judged by the actions of others, our supposed “leaders.”

    Yet a “system” is ultimately nothing more than a collective of “individual sins” operating through the agency of cultural sanction. Addressing such a faceless construct while attempting to bypass the individuals who comprise it is to ensure that said system continues to thrive.

    I don’t think so. It’s more than just the sum of its parts. The pattern of individual relationships that make up this system didn’t start from, “Hey, let’s go kill everything in our path.” It never starts with that. It usually starts with, “Hey, last year was tough; this year we’re sitting pretty. Let’s plant more wheat this year, and get Bob to organize everything ’cause he’s such a great guy, so we won’t have another year like last year.” Is that so bad? Wanting to stop death and suffering? Because that’s where all of this springs, not from individual “sins,” but from the systemic consequences of actions arising from the very best intentions.

    …but much of your essay struck me as equally rooted in the very morals and philosophy of the culture you seek to exit.

    Perhaps, but obviously I disagree. For instance, I’ve noticed it’s civilized folks who always want to have some individual person to blame, as you seem to above. It’s much harder to see something terrible as simply the systemic consequences of fairly innocent actions, with no one to really blame. That’s actually something of a theme I’ve noticed in many “primitive” myths…

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 11 June 2006 @ 12:32 PM

  23. Jason: “They’ll also know the ideology he was pushing, and though they might not be able to apply the label “primitivist” to it, they do know what it is.”

    dm: Hmmm…I haven’t found this to be the case. Not that I often find myself discussing the actions or ideology of the Unabomber with many folks, but the handful of individuals from the mainstream sectors of society that I have done so with usually have little idea who what or why he targeted whom he targeted. But that’s just my own personal experience. Obviously, others may differ.

    Jason: “Describe what you believe, and the typical response is, “Oh, like the Unabomber–so you’re a terrorist.” At least, that’s what I very often get.”

    dm: That really surprises me. From all that you’ve written through anthropik, I’d categorize our worldviews as extremely similar, yet I have never had the misfortune of being compared to TK.

    Jason: “…I cannot even count how many times I’ve been dismissed because of something Zerzan argued. Like it or not, we are always judged by the actions of others, our supposed “leaders.”

    dm: Now this I have experienced, but usually only from radicals who only partially listen to what I have to say, then equate it with someone like John Zerzan (who I actually disagree with more than I agree). It is disconcerting to have to communicate my beliefs from a position of defense rather than open communication and sharing, but I think that those who dismiss me because of Zerzan likely find the very prospect of my lifestyle so anathema to their own that they would have subsequently dismissed me even if they had never encountered Zerzan.

    Ultimately, I’m simply interested in sharing who I am, how I have come to believe the things I believe and why I am living (or attempting to live) according to my hearts most wild desires. If they can relate and sympathize, fantastic, I gladly share what I know…if they can’t relate, don’t wish to relate or perceive me as a threat, then sadly that too will be what it shall be and the encounter/relationship tends to fizzle. Not everyone is ready or willing to step out of their cages, nor do I necessarily want them to.

    Regarding the idea of the “system and the concept of parts vs. the whole you wrote…

    Jason: “The pattern of individual relationships that make up this system didn’t start from, “Hey, let’s go kill everything in our path.” It never starts with that.

    dm: I agree. I never stated that it did.

    Jason: “It usually starts with, “Hey, last year was tough; this year we’re sitting pretty. Let’s plant more wheat this year, and get Bob to organize everything ’cause he’s such a great guy, so we won’t have another year like last year.”

    dm: Of course. And it’s individuals making those statements and carrying out those acts, not some faceless entity beyond accountability. But don’t misunderstand, I’m not approaching this from a moral angle and labeling individuals as “bad” for acting on their needs and desires…I’m simply saying that “culture” is nothing more than a collection of like minded folks doing that very thing. A collection of parts whose ongoing interaction and worldview creates a whole.

    Jason: “Is that so bad? Wanting to stop death and suffering? Because that’s where all of this springs, not from individual “sins,” but from the systemic consequences of actions arising from the very best intentions.

    dm: Of course that’s not bad. The term “sins” was your own, not mine, I simply reflected it to you. My comment about “the system” was a broad reflection, not specifically targeting agriculture or anything else for that matter. I see the current outcome we are experiencing (i.e. global civilization) as a complex result stemming from sendentism and wide scale agriculture…but don’t see either of those things as “good” or “bad”. They simply are. They happen to create a lifeway that is unsustainable, disastrous to living systems and unappealing to my own desires and sensibilities. That’s all.

    Jason: “I’ve noticed it’s civilized folks who always want to have some individual person to blame, as you seem to above.

    dm: Hmmm…I’ve noticed that it’s civilized folks who always seem to want to have some monolithic entity that denies personal accountability to blame (take say, the state, for example) as you seem to above.

    Jason: “It’s much harder to see something terrible as simply the systemic consequences of fairly innocent actions, with no one to really blame.”

    dm: Well…I tend to see many terrible things as simply the systemic consequences of fairly innocent actions carried out by well meaning individuals, have little interest in blaming anyone, and a great deal of interest in seeking corrective measures that might free me from the results.

    You folks do great work here at Anthropik. I hope you continue!

    dreaming mountain

    Comment by dreaming mountain — 11 June 2006 @ 4:51 PM

  24. Hmmm…I haven’t found this to be the case.

    No? Never mentioned living in the woods, or a certain skepticism about the salvific power of technology, just to be answered with, “Oh, like the Unabomber!” Naturally, they’ll probably not be able to tell you much about the