Answer to Gillis

by Jason Godesky

William Gillis is a true anarchist. I use the term for myself only of convenience, a shorthand if you will, when the person I’m talking to is unlikely to have much patience to hear a full explanation of my position. I’m flattered that it was in reading my own Thirty Theses that Gillis decided that he “couldn’t really ignore ‘the primitivist problem’ any longer,” and began work on his own “Fifteen Anti-Primitivist Theses.” He noted from the outset, “Though I mean this similarly named project in response, I do so not to his specific prose or logic but in engagement with the broader movement.” I’ve been reading his essays as they’ve been published, and as I have, the point at which we part ways has become increasingly clear to me. Gillis is a true anarchist. He is an idealist who dreams of an anarchist utopia, and will accept nothing less. I’m merely a realist; I’m just looking for what works.

Given the nature of Gillis’ project, and the importance of this distinction, I feel his work deserves a detailed response. Since his own site does not appear to support comments, I will have to make that response here.

#1: Biology’s constructs and dichotomies are not useful.

In his first essay, Gillis falls into something of a trap; though he makes statements dismissing biology, the evidence he marshals does not deny biology, but taxonomy. In fact, biology has undermined taxonomy far more effectively than Gillis’ reasoning. The taxonomic background of biology is a pre-Darwinian legacy that has come under assault as biologists have begun to explore the full ramifications of evolution. The fact that Gillis highlights—that taxonomies are artificial and not useful—is well taken, but primarily because it underlines the fact that a proper understanding of human society must be rooted in a proper understanding and appreciation of biology. That our knowledge of biology is always imperfect does little to change the fact that we are biological creatures, and all of our intellectual, social, and spiritual capacity stems from that basis. To deny that basis is to deny ourselves and what we truly are—to establish an idealism that is deeply dehumanizing precisely because we cannot ever live up to it.

#2: The biosphere is not inherently good or superior, just very dynamic.

Gillis’ primary claim here is basically true, and echoes my own thesis #5. The tone, of course, is deeply troubling: life is presented as little more than an information storage device, rather than the capacity for storing information existing to perpetuate life. There is a distinctly anthropocentric viewpoint to Gillis’ argument in this section, but I essentially agree with most of this article’s explicit points, if not its implicit undercurrents. Particularly true is his final point that primitivism, though it greatly increases our chances of survival, does not guarantee it; it merely avoids a guarantee that we will not survive.

#3: Humans can choose their dynamics.

Here we part ways significantly. This statement is one of faith, and one that has little evidence to back it up. Though often claimed, humans have never acted with any kind of conscious choice on a societal level. Materialism remains perfectly predictive of human behavior. The agency we exercise on a personal level is, in fact, the very thing that guarantees this effect. Such agency gives us each, individually, the capacity to make our own decisions. Some of us will act in strange ways, but most will congregate around a basic, behavioral norm. A bell curve of human behavior emerges, which leaves it to material resources to set the mean and standard deviation. It provides the behaviorial diversity for natural selection to work on. The end result is that humans cannot choose their own dynamics, any more than any other animal; our dynamics choose us.

To support this statement—one that Gillis simply presents by saying that “there’s no denying” it—Gillis acknowledges that the systems evolution has bequeathed us are, to quote Daniel Quinn, “damnably hard to improve upon.” He acknowledges that “in the short term, it’s certainly amenable to assume that enough of the overarching patterns of equilibrium involved in our upkeep will be maintained for a few dozen more millennia. … Provided we continue to participate in roughly the same manner.” But, while acknolwedging the disastrous implications it is likely to produce, Gillis still holds that technology—by which Gillis means any abstraction or mental model—provides us with the means of departing from evolution and setting our own course.

The ancient Greeks called this “hubris”: the assumption that we could account for all the various factors and problems that the gods (or, in our case, evolution) had already solved. It is precisely the scenario that Daniel Quinn equated with eating from the Tree of Knowledge, and the mistaken assumption that we have the intelligence to rule the world. We often congratulate ourselves for the power of our intelligence, but the evidence is lacking.

#4: Role-filling is moral nihilism.

It is with this essay that Gillis begins to take a hard line that is fundamentally irreconcilable with reality. Beginning with the dismissal of the Nazis’ defense at Nuremburg of “following orders,” Gillis proceeds to an illogical crescendo with statements like, “Externalities of any sort, by definition, are fundamentally unknowable and thus arbitrary.”

Externalities are only unknowable under the most radical Humean skepticism, and they are anything but arbitrary. Gillis supposes that becoming part of one’s ecology and engaging in the living community is “moral nihilism” because it surrenders our responsibility. This kind of extreme abstraction misses the fact that the oppression of the state is an abstracted sleight of hand, whereby the very real externalities of ecology are shifted to the imaginary externalities of the state and hierarchical systems. This is why Gillis is correct in his dismissal of the state’s external pressures, but descends into absurdity when he tries to extend that argument to the ecology: the ecology, unlike the state, is real.

Gillis makes the claim that acknowledging external elements must always lead to oppression: “And over many iterations, though such externalities may have been first broadly interpreted into producing anti-authoritarian behavior, without an internally emergent moral fire, they will justify anything.” History betrays this argument. People lived in precisely this way for over a million years, and yet it was only with the innovation of agriculture that oppression began. Like so many criticisms of primitivism, Gillis’ cannot overcome the basic fact that unlike other types of anarchist theory, primitivism is not merely theory; it can work, it has worked, and to date, it is the only mode of social organization that has been proven to work. Any other system is speculation, but primitivists do not need to deal with speculation like this; we can turn to a million years of successful history for actual evidence.

#5: Individuals flourish with increase of dynamic connections.

This essay begins with the common confusion of liberty and prosperity (one can be perfectly liberated and still incredibly poor, after all), but more importantly, Gillis ignores all evidence to the contrary and states, “There is no fundamental limit to this contact.”

Of course, the evidence suggests otherwise. There are limits. Dunbar’s Number is the neurological limit of our immediate society, beyond which the “shortcuts” of prejudice and hierarchy become necessary; humans have no sense of emergent properties or exponential growth, so our intuitive senses of scale, morality and importance go completely haywire, as we’ve often explored on this site. Humans are biological creatures, and our social and intellectual capacities are confined by biological constraints. There are fundamental limits, beyond which we must sacrifice our humanity to continue.

For Gillis, such restraint is oppression, but of course the long record of primitive societies did not see it as such. But such societies also provided ample opportunity for the exploration that Gillis so enshrines: “We like to reach out and explore.” But ultimately, what we see when we compare ourselves to healthier societies, is that the urge to explore is the domain of the young and the unhappy. We like to explore because we are so deeply unhappy. In healthy societies, the young have ample opportunity to explore. Primitive societies have often had continent-crossing trade routes, and individuals from primitive societies would explore far and wide, both the material world and the shamanic world of perception and spirits, and all of it with a far deeper view to the social bonds and living communities that make each place special, alive and unique.

But ultimately, youngsters from healthy societies find a place in a community of their own, and they lose the taste for exploration—preferring instead to make a community to call home. In our own society, the deep alienation we feel from one another and from the living world we’re rooted in keeps us listless and rootless, sometimes forever, without ever finding a community to call our own. Gillis’ desire to explore is a symptom of our shared civilized pathology, and one that he unfairly projects to the whole species. As Daniel Quinn reminded us, “We are not humanity.”

Gillis makes a fairly radical claim about technology in this essay that once again flies in the face of all evidence: “Rather than from a drive to rigidly control and master, technology has always been, at root, formed by the desire for greater dynamic contact. Not the divorced-from-the-world laziness that sometimes emerges from later abdications once the tools have been acquired. But from the desire to touch, feel and explore.” In fact, most tools were developed precisely to minimize our contact: a digging stick instead of our own hands, an IM chat instead of a conversation, and so on. The divorced-from-the-world laziness that Gillis decries is not an unintended consequence but the very reason we invent these tools in the first place. The fact that this is precisely what very nearly every tool accomplishes for us, and almost no tool has ever turned back, should be evidence enough.

#6: Understanding is not dependent on process but capacity to experience.

On this essay, Gillis and I are almost entirely agreed, except for his unabashed enthusiasm for technology. He writes, “Technology is not understanding. But here’s the trick. Technology can facilitate the capacity to experience.” As a possibility, this is still perfectly correct, but technology can just as often deny us our ability to experience, and put us into contact with less and less. David Abram’s Spell of the Sensuous provides an excellent case in point (see my review); writing is, as Abram writes, “an intensely concentrated form of animism.” Yet it is a form of magic so strong that it blinds us to all other kinds. It’s not that technology, or in this case writing, is in itself a “bad” thing, but rather that all too often the effect it has is to put us in touch with the abstraction, rather than the thing itself. That capacity to experience is more often restricted by technology. Nor is this a matter of technology being “bad,” but rather, that complexity is subject to diminishing returns, and that humans in particular are not well adapted to very complex societies. The possibility Gillis looks forward to might be theoretically possible, but the actual history of technological progress does not support that contention. It is, at best, baseless speculation. Gillis waxes poetic with what he no doubt considers counter-evidence to this claim:

Today we can actually feel individual molecules with our hands. We can caress the fringe star clusters of distant galaxies with our eyes. We can see the insides of our own bodies and recognize the pheromones dripping off our shoulders. See sound waves. Pick apart flavors and the patterned buzzing of our own nerves.

But of course, this contact is mediated, not direct. By the same token, shamans offered similarly mediated experiences of the same phenomena, so how much has technology gained us that we did not already have?

#7: Physical limitation inspires social oppression.

With this essay, Gillis unfortunately descends into the kind of baseless speculation one also finds in Hobbes’ Leviathan. Rather than engage the actual evidence we have about primitive life, Gillis speculates on thought experiments that regionalization must mean a greater degree of want—something that technology could alleviate. The evidence, of course, shows us the true story: it is complex societies that suffer from want, and regional, less complex cultures that are the “original affluent society.” Gillis’ thought experiment highlights the dangerous hubris that comes along with the belief that we can successfully account for all the factors involved in creating a successful human society. He has neglected to examine the energy and complexity foundation of technology, and blindly accepts the silly notion that technological progress is an independent variable. He fails to examine the ways in which regional societies are better able to become part of their regional ecology, with a much more diverse, and thus, much more resilient, source of sustenance than the handful of staples that more complex societies rely on because they can be easily exported from region to region. Most absurd of all, Gillis imagines that accepting physical limitations—being part of a specific ecology, accepting the cycle of life and death, etc.—is the basis of social oppression, rather than the ability to accumulate and centralize energy, provided by greater complexity and technology.

If the realm of thought experiment was not sufficient to dispel these notions in itself, did not the vast historical record betray the absurdity of such claims?

We can argue about degree, but the point is there will be some non-insignificant degree of this.

This is where interdependency exits the realm of mutual aid and develops the potential for serious nastiness. Where there is social want and where the fulfillment of individual want is deeply dependent upon others, there is much greater temptation on the part of the individual to drastically simplify their operating processes. To become machines in pursuit of survival. And, perhaps most importantly, to simplify away the presence of other individuals. To reinterpret them as machines as well.

Is it not telling that this attitude develops only in the latest sliver of our history, when we develop greater complexity and more technology? If this is an ever-present facet of forager life, why is there no evidence of it among foragers? Once again, primitivism is unique among anarchist dreams in that it, and it alone, has actually been realized. We need not speculate on thought experiments; there is a million year record that we can turn to. That record lays waste to the thought experiments posed by Hobbes, just as it does to those posed here by Gillis. Previously, Gillis had proposed that our models could allow us to escape evolution and make our own path, but this model shows us clearly that we rarely have the capacity to account for all the factors involved, and our models often go wildly afield from the actual processes going on around us. Evolution isn’t perfect, but it’s damnably hard to improve upon.

#8: Spatial limitation ingrains social hierarchy.

Gillis begins this essay stating, “It is said that, in a simple world, a single empire can only reach as far as a horse can ride. But of course the idea of empire knows no such restrictions. One border inspires another.” And of course, empires are not made simply out of ideas, but out of the concentration of energy that allows power to coerce others to obedience—such things do not exist in a simple world, save perhaps in the most isolated pockets.

Such a lack of respect for physical constraints and the notion that ideas manifest themselves simply where they are thought without any regard to whether they have the resources to be supported, suffuses this essay, and once again, he relies on thought experiments that quickly go awry. This is particularly noteworthy:

Because of scarcity, hunter-gatherer tribes naturally aggregate with a good deal of separation between them. When the psychoses of power take root in a tribe they are emboldened and strengthened by such spatial limitation.

Firstly, as already mentioned, and as Marshall Sahlins explored in depth in his classic “Original Affluent Society,” “scarcity” is a condition of the technological, complex societies Gillis is calling “free”; it is not found among foragers. Secondly, Gillis has actually touched upon one of the core reasons why forager bands don’t have leaders. If one emerges, the band splinters. The individuals all know people in other bands, and band composition changes frequently. There is no such thing as a forager leader because no leader can pin down a control of the resources foragers need. They cannot control the food supply anymore than modern political leaders can control sunlight. As such, coercion is simply not tolerated, and if all other means fail, there is always the option to go visit your brother-in-law, or your grandparents, or an old friend in a band a few miles over.

Of course, this is not possible in more technological, complex societies. Sedentism came before agriculture, and before the first evidence of hierarchy. It was the sunk costs of complexity into a specific place that made leaders more difficult to escape. Foragers are rooted in a specific ecology that they share a sacred bond with, but agriculturalists have homes. Foragers wander freely over a single large area, but agriculturalists are tied down to specific plots of land that they can never leave.

#9: Freedom of information is necessary for free societies.

If this were true, why is it that the only free societies we have actually seen are primitive societies, where “freedom of information” is impeded by the physical realities of long-distance travel, generally diffusing through trade routes and regular festivals? Gillis writes, “Look closely and all social power systems stem from impediments to communication.” In fact, all social power systems stem from monopolizing energy; as Daniel Quinn put it, “locking up the food.” There are many societies today with freedom of information, but they are anything but free.

#10: It’s impossible to speak of regional liberty.

Gillis begins this essay with a statement that is certainly touching emotionally, but devoid of any real content:

The idea that some parts of humanity can be free while others are not is conceptually incoherent. Insomuch as anyone anywhere is oppressed, I am oppressed. I mean that not as a trite greeting card summary of solidarity in liberty, but in recognition of a basic psychological principle. To speak of being personally “free� in any sense while others are not is to leave whatever remains of the “self� a laughably meaningless shell.

Gillis appeals to an ideal of “humanity” that is simply beyond our human ability to appreciate. Dunbar’s Number sets our neurological capacity for such appreciation near 150; with 6.5 billion people in the world, there’s only 0.000002% of “humanity” that we will ever be able to appreciate as people at any given time. In order to have such concern for “humanity,” Gillis must first, ironically enough, strip them of their humanity. They are not people, but part of a single stereotype, a single figure called “Humanity.” Now it has been scaled down to something we can feel for and appreciate; but in order to do so, we’ve reduced the notion to, in Gillis’ words, “a laughably meaningless shell.”

This breakdown of the human capacity for empathy and compassion is a critical ingredient in the creation of social oppression. People must be reduced to stereotypes simply for our brains to cope with a scale far beyond anything evolution has equipped us to handle. Hierarchy is one way we get around this—we developed social oppression precisely because of this problem. Bigotry and prejudice follow, as well.

If liberty means anything, it must also mean that we deal with one another as people, rather than as stereotypes or ranks. That means keeping society at a sufficiently small scale that the human brain can understand it. Gillis says it is impossible to speak of regional liberty. I contend it’s impossible to speak of anything else.

#11: Any society that embraces death will embrace oppression.

A few days ago, my brother asked why it is that it’s always the villains in literature that seek immortality. I replied that it’s the pursuit of immortality itself which makes one villainous. We are animals; we exist only because others die for us. When we eat meat, other animals die for us, but vegetarians can’t escape this basic fact, either, because plants die for them. Bacteria live and die for us by the millions at every moment. To be an animal is to live at the expense of others. This can only work because in the end, animals die. They give back all that they’ve taken. They become food to worms and bacteria, and their flesh becomes soil for plants.

There are immortals in the world—certain species of protozoa, mostly. But not animals, because an immortal animal would be the most terrible abomination: the ultimate taker that never gives back, that demands that all die for it, but refuses to ever die for anything else. This is why any animal pursuing immortality is a villain. Primitive religion is obsessed with the balance of life and death, because that’s the essential covenant that every animal makes with the living earth, with every bite of every meal, that one day, they will give it back. It’s what makes the animal kingdom viable. To pursue immortality is to try to break that most sacred covenant, to betray every plant and animal that ever gave its life for you.

Gillis suggests that because primitivism accepts death as part of the natural order, there’s no end to the oppression it will accept. Besides being a textbook example of a slippery slope hypothesis, the same logic damns the very transhumanists Gillis points to in his article. After all, how can one have “transhumanism,” without the implicit belief that simply being human isn’t enough? That humanity is fallen, degraded, or at the very least, insufficient? Doesn’t that view of humanity invite a belief in control and domination—isn’t that the very view used by Hobbes to justify Leviathan, or civilizations throughout history to justify their domination? If Gillis is willing to accept that humanity is insufficient in this regard, how much more is he willing to accept?

Gillis suggests that primitivism closes off our hope because it condemns us to remain human, but of course, one hope always closes off another. Some hopes are simply incompatible, and others require a leap before they even become conceivable. Primitivists take away the hope of so-called “transhumanists,” and their contempt for humanity, but only because it abolishes their contempt. But where is the hope for life beyond civilization? Where is the hope that we might be able to come home to the living world that nourishes us and enriches us? That’s the hope that Gillis’ arguments cut us off from.

#12: Technology can be applied dynamically.

I actually agreed with most of this. His critique of what some anarcho-primitivists have made of “technology” is spot on. I advocate moving back to primitive technology, and basically going through the civilized catalogue to see what works and what doesn’t. Then we can start seeing what kind of technology we really want, what really gives us the things we need, and start approaching it not as something that must be feverishly advanced for its own sake, but as a means by which we interact with the world. This is no mere avatism; it’s sankofa.

Unfortunately, Gillis then goes on to completely misunderstand the relationship of diminishing returns to technological innovation. Like so many others, he suggests that computers are somehow exhibiting a different behavior, yet we can still read Jules Verne and see the same giddy loss of perspective evidenced in “Moore’s Law” expressed a century ago for the inventions taking place then. As we invent more things, we invent the most obvious things first. That can be reset by a paradigm shift (change the way you at the world, so different things become obvious), but those are essentially random. But the more we invent, and the more ways we look at the world, the fewer remain to use again. Further inventions become more difficult. They might require a lot of specialized study, for instance. Not that they’ll generally provide more for that effort, of course, and that’s what makes for diminishing returns. The misunderstanding here is firmly on Gillis’ part. This doesn’t suggest that technology is useless or bad, but it does suggest that any order predicated upon ever-increasing technological complexity will be doomed to fail.

#13: We do not live in a closed system.

In this one, Gillis suggests that solar power makes collapse something we can avoid. Others, of course, prefer biofuels, nuclear, or even coal. Most sensible of all, of course, would be a combination of those and other renewable energy sources. An eclectic mix, but as we’ve already discussed elsewhere, it just doesn’t add up.

Gillis adds mining asteroids, telling us to, “Stop doing your fucking around in an infinitely complex non-linear dynamic system you don’t yet understand. In 2020 there’s an asteroid that’s going to swing by the Earth’s doorstep carrying Twenty Trillion Dollars worth (today’s market) of precious metals vital to our advanced electric circuitry based technology.”

Of course, mining asteroids is an expensive proposition. Yes, the benefits are enormous, too, but what’s the balance of cost to benefit? And more importantly, is it a cost we can afford? The technologies necessary remain science fiction, and there’s no indication that this will change any time soon. That’s generally an excellent indication that when the full ROI is taken into account, asteroids simply aren’t a very effective solution. Whether the universe as a whole is a closed system or not, we live effectively in a closed system with stable energy inputs. The energy that we can’t reach won’t change things for us if we can’t reach it. When Great Cahokia collapsed from “peak wood,” it wasn’t because every forest in the world was gone—just the ones around Cahokia. They could still walk out to those forests and back, but that walk had become so long it just wasn’t worth it anymore. The question is not whether the energy exists, but how much it takes to get it, and whether, when it’s all said and done, it’s worth it anymore.

In his characterization of the crash, Gillis proposes post-apocalyptic fiction as if it were proven scientific fact. The medieval model requires agriculture, which requires healthy soil, which no longer exists. His notion of the “perpetual iron age” ignores the importance of ore quality, and how rust degrades metal. Even a few centuries out, bog iron will be the most abundant source of iron. His faith that the topsoil (already 85% depleted in North America) will remain viable flies in the face of the evidence, and completely ignores the catastrophic end of the Holocene that made agriculture possible already under way.

Of course, he’s right on one count: “the crash will suck.” But this varies considerably depending on whether it’s something you do, or something done to you. If your way of life depends on others who decided they’ve had enough, then it can be every bit as violent and desperate as the worst post-apocalyptic visions. But if you’re the one abandoning an unsustainable way of life, that’s a very different thing. That’s why collapses happen: precisely because they offer a better life to those willing to jump ship.

Of course, in Gillis’ rhetoric, “the crash” is entirely unprecedented. Past examples of collape have no bearing on his predictions, and it’s simply anathema to suggest that civilization is nothing more than a human case of overshoot, just like an algae bloom or St. Matthew’s Island’s reindeer herd. Humans are adaptable, and there are plenty of us already considering life beyond civilization. When civilization finally eats itself, why do we expect it to defy all the biological rules of such an event, and even historical precedent, the way Gillis describes? And what is it that will wipe out those humans who don’t need civilization to survive? The Vengeful Ghost of Random Chance? Collapse is not a game of Russian roulette.

At the same time, Gillis simply asserts that galactic empires will be impossible, even in the space-faring, limitless future. Settlers in the New World once credited the vastness of the Atlantic with similarly innate liberating powers, but if technology and social complexity also continue to grow, then they will reach as far as humans can go, invariably. Despite Gillis’ naked assertion otherwise, it is a postponement of the inevitable. When civilizations stop growing, they collapse, and the bigger they are, the more terrible the collapse is. He shows the same fundamental misunderstanding of exponential growth that we are all subject to.

Take a petri dish with some bacteria at 11:00 AM. The population doubles every minute, and it fills up at noon. When is the petri dish half full?

11:59 AM.

If those bacteria had a means of expanding to a new petri dish, how long would it take to fill up two petri dishes?

12:01 PM.

It’s doubling every minute, remember. At 12:02, they’ll need four petri dishes; at 12:03, eight. Just five minutes after noon, they’ll be taking up 32 petri dishes.

The human population was 3 billion in 1960. It reached 6 billion in 1999—a doubling period of just forty years. This is not a pattern that can go on, but if it stops, we’ll collapse—that’s the nature of civilization, it requires constant growth. If we want to avoid collapse, we’ll need two more planets in forty years. We’ll need four in eighty. Eight in 120. Sixteen in 160. Thirty-two in just two centuries. Can we find and colonize our entire solar system, and three more just like it, in the same time that the United States has existed? But even if we can, do we want to? I swear I saw a movie about a group like this…

They’re like locusts. They travel from planet to planet, their whole civilization. After they’ve consumed every natural resource they move on. And we’re next.

That’s the best case scenario that the non-primitivists world can offer. Primitivists, we’re told, have no “hope,” because we won’t get on board with the agenda of immortality and galactic conquest; we just want to come home and re-establish our relationship with the living world that nourishes us and enriches us. Hopeless, indeed.

If there’s a way to make a more gradual, peaceful transition to a “future primitive,” then it lies in primitivism: in simpler societies, in truly sustainable technology and patterns of life, in hunting and gathering and permaculture. It’s a long shot, but it’s the best one we currently have.

#14: Hard though the struggle may be, the ease of partial victories will always cost us more.

Where before Gillis tried to extol the pursuit of personal immortality, in this essay, we’re told that primitivists don’t care about the future of humanity because it precludes the attainment of our species’ immortality, escaping the earth when the earth inevitably becomes uninhabitable. Of course, humans are enriched by the earth. It gives us more than just our food and water; it gives us our experience of life, it teaches us its sounds and seasons, we breathe in our intelligence and imagination like air, and breathe it out again. Being human is irrevocably tied to a particular soil, rooted in a living community that gives us life, and the promise that one day we’ll give our life for it in turn. Separated from the earth that made us, we’re not human anymore. We’re something less, something diminished. Without it, we’re already dead.

The rest of this essay relies on nanotechnology, unbound technological progress, and other common tropes of science fiction. They remain as fantastic as dragons and elves, at least for now. Unless and until there’s some indication that they might actually happen, considering their ramifications is pointless.

#15: The new is possible.

…but bloody unlikely.

It’s true: “The past has no monopoly on the possibilities of the future.” That’s, strictly speaking, true. But here, Gillis is simply making a statement of faith, echoing civilization’s faith, which Daniel Quinn expressed in Beyond Civilization:

Every year we spend more money on our schools, hoping to “fix” whatever’s wrong with them, and every year the schools remain stubbornly unfixed. Spending money didn’t work last year or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that, but you can be sure we’ll try it again this year, knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that it won’t work this year either.

That’s civilization’s usual attitude, because after all, this could be the year! We apply it across the board, and for Gillis, that’s what negates primitivism, too. Giving up and trying something different is a fundamental betrayal; after all, this could be the year it finally works! And then, won’t it be all our fault when it doesn’t? Of course, that brings to mind another quote, this one from Pakistan’s U.N. envoy, Munir Akram:

One of the definitions of madness is you keep doing the same thing but you expect different results.

Conclusion

The world needs more people like William Gillis. He’s passionate, uncompromising, deeply analytical, and eminently idealistic. I, however, am not an idealist. I am more interested in what works, rather than in what’s ideal. This may be why Gillis is so eager to pin his hope to fantastic, unproven plans for mining asteroids, “transhumanist” schemes to achieve immortality, and a space-faring, universal, anarchist mass society. I only see a mass of contradictions in those ideals (as ideals so often are so very contradictory; just take any good discussion of Utopia!).

Civilization is an unproven experiment quickly proving itself untenable. The ideas Gillis proposes are even more fantastic, and even more unproven. It’s important to remember in this discussion that so far, the only proven mode of human society for long-term success, are all primitive societies.

Primitivism isn’t the end that Gillis seems to imply, but rather, a new beginning. The lesson of the sankofa bird is that sometimes you reach a point where you can’t go any further, because you lost something along the way. At that point, the sankofa bird reminds you to ignore all the people deriding you for “going backwards” and claiming that you have to press on, because pressing on for its own sake is sheer madness. It’s all right to go back and fetch what you forgot, or what you lost. Once you have it, you’ll be able to move forward again.

We’re at such a point now. We have it in our heads that greater complexity is good in and of itself. This is madness. Complexity is good when it helps people, and bad when it subjugates them. It’s good when it increases life and prosperity for all; bad when it gives it to a few at the expense of many. Somewhere along the way in this mad pursuit, we lost our knowledge of how to operate in a functioning human society. If we keep pressing ahead without it, we’ll only destroy ourselves. If we go back and get it, we’ll be able to find a good way forward, rather than this precipitous road to self-destruction we’re on now.

Maybe one day Gillis’ dreams will become possibilities, but I can guarantee this much: they won’t be possibilities on the road we’re on. They won’t be possibilities until we come home, re-establish our relationship with the living earth and learn again how to relate to one another. After that, who knows where our destiny might lie? Maybe it will end up in the stars after all—but this is not something that we can use, as we are now, without terrible results. Once we’ve learned how to live on this planet, perhaps we’ll be able to look outwards and think of others. Or, perhaps we’ll find that there’s no reason for that at all; that this is our home, and separation from it is already death. Who can say? Certainly not us, today. If such dreams are our destiny, then they will have to wait until we’ve rediscovered our place on our own world, or even the most idealistic dream will quickly turn into a nightmare.

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  1. I actually found Gillis’ project just a few hours after he posted his first essay, and this draft has been sitting in my folder ever since. I wrote most of this article the day after he posted his last essay, but then some real-world traumas put us into an unexpected hiatus. During that time, Gillis was kind enough to get in touch with me personally about his project, and gave me a chance to respond before sending it on to others. I’m grateful for that consideration, and would just like to say again, philosophical differences aside, I have great respect for William Gillis and his forthright, passionate and uncompromising viewpoint. We could use a lot more people like that. Of course, at the end of the day, you also need something that works, and I think that’s where primitivism comes in.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 18 April 2007 @ 10:14 AM

  2. Hey J –

    Fabulous. I think…. over all this time you and I are continuing to move closer together in our thoughts. Go figure ;-)

    I especially like the section on immortality. Well done!

    Janene

    Comment by janene — 18 April 2007 @ 11:24 AM

  3. Dude. I was waiting for your response to that shit. Fucking rad! Nice work. This is great.

    Comment by Urban Scout — 18 April 2007 @ 12:50 PM

  4. I also have noticed that those who would defend civilization must of necessity cleave to many a fallacious notion in order to mount their defense. But what it comes down to is that in order for civilization to be a sustainable proposition, agriculture has to be sustainable in a way that doesn’t suck the life right out of the soil. It seems unlikely that such a development is at all possible. Many early civilizations farmed their soil practically down to the bedrock!

    Of course, when one is dealing with civilization’s more sophomoric defenders such as one finds on LiveJournal communities, one finds that one is dealing with willfully simple minds that refuse to comprehend the difference between agriculture and horticulture and that civilization has an inherent problem known as the Law of Diminishing Returns. It is because I have so far seen only fallacy and denial in defenses of civilization against primitivism that I remain partial to the primitivist critique of human history.

    Comment by venuspluto67 — 18 April 2007 @ 1:41 PM

  5. “Maybe one day Gillis’ dreams will become possibilities, but I can guarantee this much: they won’t be possibilities on the road we’re on. They won’t be possibilities until we come home, re-establish our relationship with the living earth and learn again how to relate to one another.”

    And that, my friend, is my whole fucking point.

    Comment by William Gillis — 18 April 2007 @ 6:33 PM

  6. I’m a tad confused there, William. If that’s the point, then you recognize the importance of sankofa, that we simply can’t move forward with these dreams until we’ve created a working, sustainable, primitive society. Then, of course, we may find our desire for these things evaporates as a consequence; or we might find that we still have those dreams, and set off to pursue them. Either way, we’ve lost something vital, and we can’t move forward until we’ve gone back to get it. So, if that’s the point, then why did you write so much about what an awful idea it would be to do just that? If your point is that we can’t do any of these things until we’ve re-established our relationship with the living earth, and learned again how to relate to one another from the living earth, then why do you write so much about “transhumanism” and galactic colonization? If that’s the point, then what are the “Anti-Primitivist Theses” for?

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 19 April 2007 @ 12:04 PM

  7. Heh. You see this as an all or nothing binary. I don’t.

    One can go back in many areas but still go forward in others. (Or, more to the point, start off in a completely different direction–since the stuff I’m talking about is in no way “more of the same” but an embrace of a very small vector in the development of “technology”/”science.” I want a more _dynamic_ integration with the natural world. Primitivism is a hell of a lot further down that road than the atrocious shit we’ve got right now. But even now, from our vantage point it’s easy to see how we can improve on the dynamicism available in primitivism.

    I spent tons of space on how the only way we’re going to get the progress we need in terms of dynamic, fluid technology is if we tear up much of the industrial system we’ve got now and regain our groundings in primitivism. But we can learn from primitivism and radically change up our society based on those insights without destroying the whole world in the process and starting from scratch on everything.

    “Civilization” isn’t the whole package deal that you’d write it off as. And your absolutist response to turn back the clock on EVERYTHING is just bullheaded and irrational. Making the world a better place is going to–in some places–require something a little more nuanced than a sledgehammer.

    Establishing more fluid technologies IS coming home and re-establishing our relationship with the living earth. Primitivism is a set of fluid technologies (physical and mental structures/processes) that have worked for us in the past and allow us greater connection to the natural world. I want precisely that.

    But I don’t want to permanently close the door to MORE FLUID technologies… Which, by your own account, an all out crash might damn well incur.

    Damning our future generations because it was the easiest path to a better life for us is not acceptable for me. And that’s precisely what primitivism threatens.

    Part and parcel of fixing the world with new technological frontiers (like asteroid harvesting / moving our industries off earth so that they stop fucking with the biosphere) is simultaneously going back to our roots and shedding off all the crap “civilization” has almost become synonymous with.

    We can do both, in fact the only way the good high-tech stuff is going to succeed is if we start reconnecting with the natural world.

    Also. Dude. “Galactic colonization” is a bit of a misrepresentation.

    Please. Huntergatherers between the stars and then liquefying the stars into smartmatter. (Hunter-gathering is the ONLY possible form of society on relativistic distances. You. Can’t. Break. Relativity. And planetary gravity wells are icky, wasteful and totally subject to diminishing returns. There’s no reason to fuck around with them when smaller bodies are so available.)

    Comment by William Gillis — 19 April 2007 @ 4:42 PM

  8. Put another way:

    Primitivism is the only way transhumanism is going to work and transhumanism is the only way primitivism is going to work.

    ;)

    Oh and by the way, to tide you over until I get a response up, primitivism has NEVER worked and oppression is far older than civilization. Your entire case hinges on the oppression in primitivist societies being less showy than that in modern civilization. Certainly true. But interpersonal expressions of the power psychosis are inherent to primitivism. And that’s my beef. The sloppy edicts and horrors of kings are far less importance than the oppression between mother and daughter, husband and wife, between one group of friends and another. Those diffuse powerstructures ultimately vastly outnumber the more explicit and formalized forms of rulership, and they have a more intense hold over people’s lives.

    Anthropologists suck at recognizing–and are rarely inclined to call out–the roots of sociological power.

    Oh and signs of greater happiness are hardly grounds for idealization: anyone can choose to restructure themselves to be happy in any social environment.

    Comment by William Gillis — 19 April 2007 @ 5:01 PM

  9. Heh. You see this as an all or nothing binary. I don’t.

    On the contrary; first, we need to have a sustainable way to live. The simple fact of the matter is that agriculture requires more calories of work than it gives back in food. That simple fact leads you by a steel chain to most of the things that make our current way of life so utterly unsustainable. Without an elite to provide for, almost any other means of subsistence becomes far more effective, so automatically, you need rulers, the very moment you start farming. You need those with food, and those without it. You can use miltiaries, priesthoods, and any number of other systems to shift the imbalance around, but the one thing you can’t do is undo the imbalance, because that would mean giving up agriculture. It means you need a “cheat” from somewhere else to make it; it could be draft animals or petrochemicals or anything else, but you need something else pouring energy in to make up for the gap.

    So before anything else can happen, you need to lose agriculture. That means civilization in any recognizable form, and in fact, the mass society that only agriculture can maintain. All the sustainable ways of making a living—be they permaculture or any of a thousand different kinds of hunting & gathering—require smaller, human-sized communities. It’s not an all-or-nothing thing it all, but it does mean dealing with the full consequences of how we live.

    One can go back in many areas but still go forward in others. (Or, more to the point, start off in a completely different direction–since the stuff I’m talking about is in no way “more of the same” but an embrace of a very small vector in the development of “technology”/”science.” I want a more _dynamic_ integration with the natural world. Primitivism is a hell of a lot further down that road than the atrocious shit we’ve got right now. But even now, from our vantage point it’s easy to see how we can improve on the dynamicism available in primitivism.

    Actually, I wonder how much of this is a misunderstanding, and I wonder how much of this might’ve been assuaged if The Fifth World were already out. Anyway, are you familiar with Michael Green’s Afterculture? Take a look at this village. Is this something you’d be happy to see in humanity’s short term (next few centuries) future? If so, we might be more on the same page than we might have initially suspected.

    But we can learn from primitivism and radically change up our society based on those insights without destroying the whole world in the process and starting from scratch on everything.

    Can we? Do we have a choice in the matter? I’m not so sure. I’d like to think so, and the best way to do that, I think, would be by example: create tribes now, reconcile ourselves with a given ecology and become part of it, start using permaculture and hunting and gathering right now to whatever extent we can. That’s what we’re doing, and what we’ve been advocating. But I’m not sure to what extent it will succeed on its own terms; I think it’s rather more likely to be the best chance for survival. If humans were to take the initiative now for a better world, it would be an unprecedented event in the world’s history. I don’t know if we have free will, but I act like we do anyway. Maybe I’m really just fated to believe in free will, after all. But there’s a bit of a Prisoner’s Dilemna here, isn’t there? Whoever tries to scale down will just be crushed by those who decide differently. We’re reconciling ourselves with the Allegheny Forest, one that the U.S. claims as a “National Forest.” It’s one of the most heavily logged forests in the world. It was completely ripped out 80 years ago, and now they’re back to rip out the second-growth forest that’s regenerated. It’s right down the road from Drake’s Well, the very first oil well, and it remains a productive region. That forest produces more oil and natural gas than all the other “national forests” combined. Put simply, I’m betting my future on the idea that civilization is going to contract, because if it doesn’t, we will almost certainly die with our forest.

    Clinging to the hope that we might avoid suffering the consequences of our actions is commendable, but what’s the best way to do that? As it happens, I think the best way to avoid that fate is also the best way to survive if you fail, so whether it’s possible or not, the next step remains the same: build tribes and rewild.

    “Civilization” isn’t the whole package deal that you’d write it off as.

    Sure it is—it’s a particular type of society, defined by its need for ever-increasing complexity. It isn’t art or science or philosophy or technology. All those things are at least four times older than civilization, and universal to all human cultures. Civilization is a package deal. The package consists of elite domination, agriculture, urban life, and mass society. You can’t have any of those things without the rest following quickly (thesis #13). You can’t get the density of food needed for a city without agriculture, and that requires an elite. Maybe you can keep the farmers in charge with all the food, but somebody has to be in charge if you’re farming.

    And your absolutist response to turn back the clock on EVERYTHING is just bullheaded and irrational.

    That’s not my response, though. I’m very excited about the syncretic cultures we can create. My tribe’s going to have hot solar showers, and a windmill. I’m not one saying we turn the clock back on everything. On the other hand, I have said that many seemingly innocent inventions may actually be incredibly pernicious, and we’ll need to consider everything carefully before we just go ahead and carry it on. Basically, everything in our society needs to be considered guilty until proven innocent. Even something as seemingly beneficial as writing can be disastrous (see David Abram’s Spell of the Sensuous).

    Establishing more fluid technologies IS coming home and re-establishing our relationship with the living earth. Primitivism is a set of fluid technologies (physical and mental structures/processes) that have worked for us in the past and allow us greater connection to the natural world. I want precisely that.

    OK, I can see that, and in those terms, I can agree; I want to see more fluid technology, too.

    But I don’t want to permanently close the door to MORE FLUID technologies… Which, by your own account, an all out crash might damn well incur.

    I agree here, too; I see that as part of that principle of sankofa I mentioned. I don’t see primitivism as an endpoint, but as a new beginning. But I don’t see how a crash precludes the development of more fluid technologies in the future. I think we absolutely need to divorce ourselves from the notion that we must invent new technologies. The “arms race” of escalating technology just leads to diminishing marginal returns. It’s elegance, not complexity, that should be the measure of a technology’s success. A crash would wipe out most of our current technologies, and it would wipe out our access to most metals and fossil fuels for geological time. But that says nothing about our ability to build more fluid technologies. It changes the materials available to us to complete that task, sure, from materials that have historically goaded us onto fairly destructive paths with our technology, to materials that have generally encouraged us down much more benign paths, but really, I’m quite excited to see what direction a neo-primitive culture might take fluid technologies. What tasks would a feral human put them to? What is it that we’ll want, once we’ve been so vastly transformed? I don’t think they’ll necessarily be interested in the same ends we’re interested in.

    Damning our future generations because it was the easiest path to a better life for us is not acceptable for me. And that’s precisely what primitivism threatens.

    I fail to see how. Primitivism is not a cause for collapse; civilization’s internal contradictions did that all by themselves. Primitivists no more cause collapse than climate scientists cause global warming. All we do is try to encourage and pick up the ways of life that worked for us for a million years, and prepare for this brief blip in human history to end, so we can get back to whatever destiny our species has after this brief but disastrous detour. It’s not the easiest way out, but it is looking increasingly like the unavoidable consequence of our actions. If it can be avoided, our best hope is in voluntary powerdown—precisely in primitivism, and tribalism, and rewilding. If it’s something we choose, then we can do it relatively peacefully, and leave whatever doors open for the future that we like. If it’s something that happens to us, we won’t have those luxuries. I’d like to believe we can choose the former course, and I’m doing everything I know that might help lead to that, but I fear that it may already be a few decades too late for that.

    Part and parcel of fixing the world with new technological frontiers (like asteroid harvesting / moving our industries off earth so that they stop fucking with the biosphere) is simultaneously going back to our roots and shedding off all the crap “civilization” has almost become synonymous with.

    Those are simply incompatible goals. You can’t expand the scope and power of civilizaiton, and then ask it to please leave us some room to be human in. You’re essentially setting up a cartel: you have people with the power to do it, but you ask them not to. The thing about cartels is, they always break, because the temptation to cheat is too great. Whoever cheats first, wins out over everyone else.

    Please. Huntergatherers between the stars and then liquefying the stars into smartmatter.

    I believe that also has a fictional precedent….

    Primitivism is the only way transhumanism is going to work and transhumanism is the only way primitivism is going to work.

    Ummmmmm … yeah, I don’t see that.

    Oh and by the way, to tide you over until I get a response up, primitivism has NEVER worked….

    What were we doing for the first million years of our evolution, then? I suppose this is literally true, it’s primitive societies that have always worked. Primitivism—the advocacy of a primitive society—is something that only makes sense in a non-primitive culture, so yes, in that sense, it’s never worked. Nor has any society ever become primitive of its own volition. Primitive societies emerge from more complex ones all over the world, but always as the survivors of the civilization’s violent collapse.

    …and oppression is far older than civilization.

    Not far older. You might be able to trace it back to horticultural societies, and I’m somewhat skeptical of them myself, but horticulture is only a little older than agriculture. There are signs of extremely limited oppressive societies, like at Sungir, or the Kwakiutl, but these were the products of geographical flukes. They were anomolies in an otherwise free world. And there wasn’t a one of them that you couldn’t leave behind forever after a good week’s walk. And despite your statement otherwise, while the idea of oppression certainly went with such victims, it found terribly poor conditions for taking root.

    But interpersonal expressions of the power psychosis are inherent to primitivism. And that’s my beef.

    Then you should study primitive societies more closely. One classic example is Richard Lee’s “Eating Christmas in the Kalahari.” [PDF] Nearly all primitive societies employ ingenious methods of controlling for personal power dynamics. There are variations in esteem, and some people are more respected than others in certain areas, but no one’s the best at everything, and that means that when you take a look across the board, everyone has more or less the same overall influence as everyone else. Even children have the full autonomy our culture only gives to adults.

    The sloppy edicts and horrors of kings are far less importance than the oppression between mother and daughter, husband and wife, between one group of friends and another.

    Absolutely. Ju/’hoansi parents don’t tell their children what to do. Ever. Go visit and try to do it yourself, you’ll be in for a world of trouble. No one has the right to tell anyone what to do. You keep finding this among primitive societies all around the world, wherever you go. Even the most revered elder still has to cajole and convince.

    Those diffuse powerstructures ultimately vastly outnumber the more explicit and formalized forms of rulership, and they have a more intense hold over people’s lives.

    They are, which is one reason why we have so much to learn from primitive societies and the elegant, brilliant means they have for blocking and destroying structures like that, not through direct confrontations, but what John Robb might call “a judo move.”

    Anthropologists suck at recognizing–and are rarely inclined to call out–the roots of sociological power.

    I don’t think that’s true; I’ve read whole library shelves of anthropological discussions of the very types of power you’re talking about here.

    Oh and signs of greater happiness are hardly grounds for idealization: anyone can choose to restructure themselves to be happy in any social environment.

    There’s still a bit of a bell curve involved: some people are better at that kind of restructuring than others. So greater happiness means that it’s easier to be happy there. And ultimately, what is it that makes domination so bad if it’s not the intense misery of the dominated, and the dehumanization of the dominator?

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 19 April 2007 @ 5:28 PM

  10. Hey –

    Oh and by the way, to tide you over until I get a response up, primitivism has NEVER worked and oppression is far older than civilization. Your entire case hinges on the oppression in primitivist societies being less showy than that in modern civilization. Certainly true. But interpersonal expressions of the power psychosis are inherent to primitivism. And that’s my beef. The sloppy edicts and horrors of kings are far less importance than the oppression between mother and daughter, husband and wife, between one group of friends and another. Those diffuse powerstructures ultimately vastly outnumber the more explicit and formalized forms of rulership, and they have a more intense hold over people’s lives.

    Oh my…. at this point you’re not really talking about power and control, you are talking about basic socialization. Humans are social animals… if you choose, you can always go live as a hermit in the woods, but for the rest of us that want to be around other people there will (and *should be*) a need engage in interactions with the people we love. And sometimes we will be bullies. Sometimes they will be bullies. And every other ‘imperfection’ that humans have! You’re not talking about living as a human, you’re talking about living as some sort of idealized godhead.

    Phooey, William. Just Phooey!

    Janene

    Comment by janene — 19 April 2007 @ 5:43 PM

  11. Actually, Janene, I think he raises an important point about “soft power.” He probably knows about Jo Freeman’s classic “The Tyranny of Structurelessness.” The question is whether patterns of bullying are allowed to continue, and whether “soft power” is allowed to become more domineering than any despot.

    Of course, humanity didn’t go a million years without figuring out a good way around that, and that’s where I think William goes wrong. It’s an easy enough assumption to make, but the evidence is pretty clear that primitive societies engaged that problem, and did so with incredibly effectiveness.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 19 April 2007 @ 5:49 PM

  12. Hey –

    Maybe, Jason, I just got a really strong sense of idealism in action — and I have always found that quite distasteful (particularly recently….)

    Janene

    Comment by janene — 19 April 2007 @ 6:12 PM

  13. I know what you mean, but let’s assume the best possible interpretation, at least until we can’t.

    Comment by Jason Godesky — 19 April 2007 @ 6:18 PM

  14. Consider me upbraided ;-)

    J

    Comment by janene — 19 April 2007 @ 6:43 PM

  15. Some very quick responses during class:

    “The simple fact of the matter is that agriculture requires more calories of work than it gives back in food.”

    I agree. Agriculture is not a permanent solution, it is a/the problem.

    However. De-agriculture-izing ourselves should be ideally done with nuance and adaptive fluidity, not blunt, rigid methods. The very problem with our civilization is its blunt rigidity in structure and instinctive behavior. embracing something as blunt as the crash is not a rejection of this pattern but a continuation of it.

    …And seriously, although it’s unsustainable, in many ways it’s not THAT unsustainable. That is to say we can afford to wean ourselves off it gradually.

    “Is this something you’d be happy to see in humanity’s short term (next few centuries) future? If so, we might be more on the same page than we might have initially suspected.”

    Add in mesh WiFi networks, satellites, low-effect means of long-distance transportation and a jumble of cultural affections that I doubt will disappear (like a basketball court)… and I’d be absolutely delighted.

    My real issue is with killing:

    1) The hard sciences. (I am unable to accept the notion of losing even a day in the pursuit of a unified physics. If there’s going to be but one redeeming aspect to pull out of the long clusterfuck of a road we’ve wasted so much time on it’s this.)

    2) Tech that allows freedom of information (and also physical interrelation… ie transport). Because it’s so absolutely vital to any feasible advance in our anarchism.

    3) The capacity to have choice in our future. And that means staving off peak metal and keeping some kind of industry system until we secure a foothold on space.

    “If humans were to take the initiative now for a better world, it would be an unprecedented event in the world’s history.”

    Yes. It would be absolutely unprecedented. And all probability says it aint going to happen. But could you really look yourself in the mirror without trying?

    “I don’t know if we have free will, but I act like we do anyway. Maybe I’m really just fated to believe in free will, after all.”

    I’ve tried very hard to avoid directly leaning on Free Will in the 15, but it really is the core of our differences. I don’t “believe” in Free Will. I know it absolutely. A priori and all that junk descartes was grasping at. At this point I can’t even conceive of a universe without it, physics would collapse. But let’s leave the subject as an aside for now. It is after all, impossible to “prove” anti-causality from something as causal as language. But check out the work of Penrose and Bohm if you’re interested in a legit grounding in the quantum.

    ” But there’s a bit of a Prisoner’s Dilemna here, isn’t there? Whoever tries to scale down will just be crushed by those who decide differently.”

    That’s a mere tactical problem. (Although pretty much the only one there’s ever been for Anarchists.) Perhaps it should be postponed for a later conversation or part of this one. I’d like to tie down the ideals first so that we have something to stand on in such an attempt to move the world. But there is SOME non-negligible hope there. ;)

    “Sure it is—it’s a particular type of society, defined by its need for ever-increasing complexity.”

    Complexity is a buzz term in this context devoid of meaning. (The use of “Complexity” and “Diversity” are the two ugly holes in your original 30.) A flower is a complex system. So’s the metal structure of a Space Shuttle. “Complexity” is not a valid term in understanding the sort of systems we’re dealing with.

    Rather, PARTS of our “civilization” display heinous degrees of rigidity that become brittle in contact with the more non-linear fluid dynamics of the biosphere.

    “Urban” life